Author Topic: Some disturbing news on the home front...  (Read 1588 times)

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Offline Terry C.

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Some disturbing news on the home front...
« on: November 01, 2008, 01:30:37 PM »
This is a bit off-topic, but it does relate to this forum as it's something that's going to have a very negative impact my shooting.

Our local public shooting range has been severely vandalized.

Lots of structural damage. I haven't seen it, but I spoke to someone who had and they said that the restroom facility (which was hit the hardest) "looked like a bulldozer knocked it down." This is a cinder-block structure!

As a result, it's been closed indefinitely, possibly permanently.

I'd invited some fellow forum members to join me at this range in the not-to-distant future for a day of cannon fire and fellowship. Not gonna happen now.

I'd even considered the possibility of a friendly 'competition' of sorts. I never told anyone, but that's been the major motivation behind the scope/laser mount, new carriage, and shooting platform all along.

Sure, the new carriage was a real hit at Halloween, and that put a rush on completion. But that's not what got the project off the drawing board and into production. It was never designed as a showpiece (even though it took on a second life as one), it was to have been a shooter.

This was my best, safest location for live, aimed fire. In the past couple of years it's become almost impossible to go anywhere else! People move, public lands close, development creates hazards in previously safe areas.

I'm really bummed about this.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2008, 05:06:18 PM »
     Terry,   You may try checking "NRA Ranges" in a Google search.  I believe there is one in Valdosta, GA about 70 miles from you.  Can't recall the name of it, but they have outdoor ranges out to 200 yards, including muzzle-loading ranges.  We go 95 miles one way each time we go shooting, so no whining about distance!  Remember, we are doing Georgia and Florida next year in June and that the magnificent 24 Pdr. Seige gun in Waycross is on our study list, so you have until then to find a good one. Good luck!!   ;D ;D ;D

You can do it!

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2008, 07:00:13 PM »
 That's a low hit Terry. When you say public range does that mean state owned land that has a state run range that's open to the public and free to use? I ask that question because here in Illinois, which is basically governed by a form of dictatorship, a public range would generally describe privately owned land that is open to the public (if you have a FOID card) for a fee.
If it is state authorities that have closed the range down, would getting a group of volunteers together, (that is made up of people that used the range) to police the area and do some repairs have an effect on possibly changing the authorities mind about the closing?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2008, 10:35:01 AM »
When you say public range does that mean state owned land that has a state run range that's open to the public and free to use?

That's the case here. The range is (was) operated on state funds, as well fees collected from the sale of hunting licenses.

Not sure yet what it's going to take to get it rebuilt and reopened.


M&T, I've checked into the Valdosta range on the NRA list, very pricey and somewhat exclusive. You  need the sponsorship of a current member in good standing just to apply, and the basic dues are $350 per year. Apparently they do allow 'guests' on a limited basis (for a fee) but nowhere can I find the requirements to be considered a guest.

And you're right. Whining isn't going to make it better. As you said, I have until next June so it's up to me to make something happen.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2008, 01:16:39 PM »
Quote
M&T, I've checked into the Valdosta range on the NRA list, very pricey and somewhat exclusive. You  need the sponsorship of a current member in good standing just to apply, and the basic dues are $350 per year. Apparently they do allow 'guests' on a limited basis (for a fee) but nowhere can I find the requirements to be considered a guest.

That's why I asked the earlier question, here in Illinois you go to one of these open ranges show your FOID card, slap down a Twenty and you get to shoot for the day. If your the type of person that likes to shoot on at least a semi-regular basis those Twenties start to add up. For me it's a lot more reasonable to be a member of a private range. You've pretty much covered the process for joining and being a member in a gun club, but there are some real plusses that are worth mentioning. The range, at least the one I belong to, is rarely crowded, and much more importantly the other members are experienced shooters and practice proper gun safety (I've had more than a few experiences at these public ranges that have left me less than thrilled with the intelligence levels of the other people shooting around me). We also have maintenance parties, where a group of us police the grounds, mow the grass, do some repairs and in general just try to keep the place looking good, and for those of us who volunteer do this, there is a reduction in yearly dues. 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2008, 07:00:12 PM »
 Bummer...

 My favorite range here in SoCal (San Gabriel Valley Gun Club) closed in 2006. 45 minute drive from my house when there was no traffic.

 I guess I wasn't nearly as upset about it as one of the Range Officers -who had been there since the 60's - was though; I understand he shot himself about two weeks after the place closed down.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 07:42:46 PM »
That was a little extreme.  Shoulda done in the Azusa City Councilmen who were trying to get it closed so their home prices would be higher.

But the real estate market crash in the PRC has taken care of that.  :-)
GG
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Offline Tropico

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 07:56:50 PM »
I know this doesnt help..., but here it is ?  I'll be moving over-seas pretty soon and so this doesnt matter for me .., but if I was staying in the U.S. ? ., I thought about actually just moving and being happy .., so here it is  ;D ARIZONA ;D  I suggest it for everyone., I have a great time each time I am there.

Yea .., theres a state that knows what a 2nd amendment is! I could carry my shoulder holster and .357 Ruger Vaquero exposed on my bike to walmart and into the store ., then back out and past the Yuma Territorial Prison on the way to the YPG (Yuma Proving Grounds)  and stop with the bike trailer at the N.R. Adair firing range and fire my mortar ., as well as just walk about the desert popping of .38 shotgun rounds thru  my derringer as snake repellant at my leasure..., and folks would think thats o.k.  I like Arizona ! But as for the rest of the states....., much has changed .,

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 05:22:34 PM »
Quote
I know this doesnt help..., but here it is ?  I'll be moving over-seas pretty soon and so this doesnt matter for me ..,

Tropico,

 I don't know why I never thought about this before, but what are the firearms laws like in the Republic of the Philippines? Can you pretty much do what you want to do as long as it's done safely, and are the laws the same for all the islands?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Tropico

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 09:27:20 PM »
 The short answer is no  ;D .  The pirate answer is yes.  ;D  This requires a more complex answer. Oh and there are federal laws that cover equally across the islands.



I am not going to be able to walk down the street with a six-gun like an Arizona resident  ??? . When we let the Philippines go on July 4th 1946 they didnt have a 2nd Amendment since their history went a little differant than our own. See we became thier friend during the Spanish-American war ., then for the first and only time ever in American History ., we actually tried to keep someones property ...., yea they wanted freedom after 400 years of Spanish colonialism....., and we said no. This led to the "Insurrection" a war that lasted 11  years . 50,000 dead Americans  and 50,000 dead Filapino's later and Congress's now furthering lack of interest ., caused a mutual cease fire pre-WWI. 

We didnt want them to have gun rights. We were warring against them for 11 years  .

Later on we allowed them freedom and thier first president (1936).  However 1 week to the day later after Pearl Harbor the Japanese came into the Philippine Islands (Like little sister to us by this time) So General Douglas McArthur "Defender of the Philippines (After having lived there for over 20 years) was offended personally by this attack ., and claimed he would be back ., and he was.   really  the Philippines has quite a story and connection to the U.S. we pretty much copied our Bill of Rights for them and set up thier \ government ., schools., universities ., post offices etc ., ect ., I enjoy it very much.  English is quite common and Americans are still loved as an Allie and Big Brother.  Cannons however are a differant thing and a touchy sort of topic. a major grey area .  Kids make very dangerous bamboo cannons using bamboo and kerosene . 



 I am pretty sure my Herns will handle the ignition better than bamboo. The local Baranguy Captain loves my cannons and its ok to fire blanks on holidays ..., however it is not ok to run around trying to buy gun powder.  The PNP (Philippine National Police) carry American made M-16's and are hip to the war on terrorism ., I wouldnt want to be considered a terrorist. Also the NBI (National Bureau of Investigation) would'nt like it either? (Do these governmental agencies sound American to you? )  ;D

I have friends that make firecrackers ., a legal operation in Firecracker manufacturing houses. I have made the Baranguy Captain my friend...., youd have to be able to walk between the raindrops without getting wet as a pirate *Wicked-nasty-gold-toothed-grin* I've been able to do that. Our place is in the province.  This sort of thing in Cebu or Manila could cost you a lifetime in a third world countries jail. A most unpleasant way to spend your retirement.




One needs to have friends in authorative positions  ., obey laws ., and practice restraint and let people know for holidays what is your plan.  Here is another piece of PH trivia for you. This coming holiday I will be schooled by some young adults on how they use the kerosene in that bamboo cannon ., This may very well be our blank propellant as opposed to my fireworks people.  After all if bamboo can withstand kerosene ( dumb., I know ) ., then perhaps it may be better for me than gunpowder on the islands for my Herns and my bronze cannons?  I will post it as it is tested and becomes my new way of booming thru the Holiday.   I have to stay safe keep my guests safe ...., and stay Legal. I would rather have cannon grade GOEX ., But I cant get it thier. therefore I need to learn to use what I can safely and reliably . Live fire doesnt happen . Continuing to be free is of top priority.  ;D

I copied a few items for you Boom J

Here is the top of the title I was given by a Mr.tortal for the beach we bought ., the date below which you cannot see is when his family titled it ..., 1931.



Now this interesting picture is of 100p (About 2 dollars to you !) Youll see like no other country in the world., The Philippines still honors the American sacrifice to free thier country twice in a 50 year period ., despite our trying to keep them., and below "Öld Glory" you can see the grateful nation of people. Its never dull.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 01:33:04 AM »
 Tropico,

 A few of my Filipino friends have related stories of bamboo cannons they made as kids using something they called "carburo" to fire them. The descriptions of this stuff and how they used it sounded like it must be calcium carbide, as used in our "Big Bang" cannons.

 Have you heard of this being used over there?

 When we were kids we used to make tennis ball cannons out of several soup cans taped together with the ends cut out. We used Ronson lighter fluid in them, but I suppose kerosine would have done the job.

 You might look into propane - it's used by some reinactors to make old cannons go bang where BP wouldn't be safe or practical. My Son and I went on a WWII nostalgia cruise a few months ago where propane was used to fire modified original 20mm and 5" cannons during a mock air attack on the ship. It was plenty loud, and I imagine would be cleaner than most other options.

 Edit - Forgot to add that high-powered air rifles are big in the PI's, with a few companies manufacturing them there both for domestic customers and export. This is an option if you want to target shoot or hunt there.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 08:26:28 AM »
 Thanks Tropico, a lot of very interesting information; are there any U.S. militery bases left on the islands? I remember seeing a documentary film about the closing of a large American Naval base that closed besause of a volcano eruption that basically demolished the entire base.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Tropico

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2008, 05:27:24 AM »
Victor3 ., thanks for the reply !  Calcium Carbide ? I am not sure what they are using ., propane does sound like an awesome idea however ! I would like to  figure out a way to do that. I will have to llok into it some more.

Boom J ., no more U.S. bases since 94 The base took on some ash when the volcano blew ., but thats not why we left.  We were actually voted out by the Philippine Senate. I think they regret it now. I personally wish we were still there. After all it is the gateway to the Pacific. The base was not demolished. Todays it is an international freeport. The bases powerplant is in operation as well as the dry-docks. The city of Olongopo lost alot when the Americans left. We were there for 96 years .,Subic was our longest lived and largest over-seas base .

Offline and7barton

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2008, 06:25:45 AM »

This was my best, safest location for live, aimed fire. In the past couple of years it's become almost impossible to go anywhere else! People move, public lands close, development creates hazards in previously safe areas.

I'm really bummed about this.

I've long envied your freedom to do this. Here in the UK - there is NOWHERE - PERIOD to shoot cannon & shot. Every piece of land is owned by someone. We have to......ahem....."make our own arrangements".
The requirements for certificates and licences for every little thing makes it even worse. It's most frustrating and all unnecessary. Just the love of red tape by our authorities.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2008, 07:54:33 AM »
The base that was disabled by the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo was Clark Air Force Base.  The eruption occurred in the middle of negotiations for continuing the lease of the base and basically made its continued use too expensive when combined with the desired rent increase of the Philippine Senate, so it was evacuated and abandoned.
GG
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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2008, 04:16:28 PM »
Re: The Phillipine's...I flew into Clark AFB in 1969, bus ride to Subic, (about 90 miles) under the watchful eyes of PNP armed with the afore mentioned M-16's. Those little guys are great in my book, one of them stepped out of an alley one night and saved my butt from a 6 man whip-down with one of them, so, what ever you do, follow the local laws, and like you said, learn their practices regarding cannon shooting! Never say it can't still be a kick! What's to say you can't visit back home to get a whiff of BP once in a while! BoomLover
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2008, 03:22:11 AM »
 Tropico - Spelling mistake; they call calcium carbide "kalburo." Check this out...

http://www.filipinoforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5941

 And here (You've probably seen it before. It mentions kalburo)...

http://www.pia.gov.ph/default.asp?m=12&fi=p031229.htm&date=12/29/2003
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Some disturbing news on the home front...
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 04:38:29 AM »
Quote
Boom J ., no more U.S. bases since 94 The base took on some ash when the volcano blew ., but thats not why we left.  We were actually voted out by the Philippine Senate. I think they regret it now. I personally wish we were still there. After all it is the gateway to the Pacific. The base was not demolished. Todays it is an international freeport. The bases powerplant is in operation as well as the dry-docks. The city of Olongopo lost alot when the Americans left. We were there for 96 years .,Subic was our longest lived and largest over-seas base .

Thanks Tropico, This Wikipedia article covers some of what you said about Subic and George stated for Clark. I agree with you it's a shame these bases were closed. According to some of the information I've read since these posts were made, the Philippine authorities at the time were not happy with the U.S. for supporting Marcos for all those years, and made unreasonable demands to our government to keep Subic open. Supposedly, there is a faction in the Philippine government that now regrets that the closings ever happened and they are now involved in talks with our government about possibly reopening a military base somewhere on the islands.


Closure
 On June 15, 1991, Mount Pinatubo, just 20 miles (32 km) from Subic Bay, exploded with a force 8 times greater than the Mount St. Helens eruption. Day turned to night as volcanic ash blotted out the sun. Volcanic earthquakes and heavy rain, lightning and thunder from Typhoon Yunya passing over northern Luzon made Black Saturday a 36-hour nightmare.

By the morning of June 16, when the volcano's fury subsided, Subic Bay, once one of the most beautiful and well-maintained Navy bases in the Pacific, lay buried under a foot of the rain-soaked, sandy ash.

Buildings everywhere collapsed under the weight of the coarse gray ash. Two girls, one a nine-year-old American and the other a Filipino citizen, died when trapped under a falling roof at George Dewey High School. In the city of Olongapo, more than 60 volcano-related deaths were reported, including eight who were crushed when part of Olongapo General Hospital collapsed.

That night, the threat of continued eruptions combined with the lack of water and electricity led to the decision to evacuate all dependents. U.S. warships and cargo planes began the emergency evacuation of thousands of Navy and Air Force dependents. Seven Navy ships sailed Monday, June 17, with 6,200 dependents. A total of 17 ships, including the aircraft carriers, USS Abraham Lincoln and USS Midway evacuated all 20,000 dependents over the next few days. The evacuees were taken by ship to Mactan Air Base and then were airlifted by U.S. Air Force C-141 Starlifters to Andersen Air Force Base at Guam.

After the dependents were evacuated, an intense clean-up was begun. All hands, American service members and Filipino base employees, worked around the clock to restore essential services.

Clark Air Base, much closer to Mount Pinatubo, was declared a total loss and plans for a complete closure were started.

Within two weeks NAS Cubi Point was back in limited operation. Soon, most buildings had electricity and water restored. By mid-July service had been restored to most family housing units. The dependents began returning September 8, 1991 and by the end of the month almost all were back at Subic Bay from the United States.

Many months before the expiration of the Military Bases Agreement of 1947 intense negotiations between the governments of the United States and the Philippines began. These negotiations resulted in the Treaty of Friendship, Peace and Cooperation between the United States and the Republic of the Philippines. This would have extended the lease of the American bases in the Philippines.

On September 13, 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the ratification of this treaty, citing a number of reasons for the rejection. This was a devastating blow to the Aquino administration, who were strongly pro-treaty and even called for a referendum by the Filipino people; a move that was declared unconstitutional.

 
The American Flag is lowered and Philippine flag is raised during turnover of Naval Station Subic Bay.In December 1991, the two governments were again in talks to extend the withdrawal of American forces for three years but this broke down as the United States refused to detail their withdrawal plans or to answer if nuclear weapons were kept on base. (Nuclear weapons were forbidden on Philippine soil.) Finally on December 27, President Corazon Aquino, who had previously fought to delay the U.S. pullout to cushion the country's battered economy, issued a formal notice for the U.S. to leave by the end of 1992. Naval Station Subic Bay was the U.S.'s largest overseas defense facility after Clark Air Base was closed.

During 1992, tons of material including drydocks and equipment, were shipped to various Naval Stations. Ship-repair and maintenance yards as well as supply depots were relocated to other Asian countries including Japan and Singapore. Finally, on November 24, 1992, the American Flag was lowered in Subic for the last time and the last 1,416 Sailors and Marines at Subic Bay Naval Base left by plane from NAS Cubi Point and by the USS Belleau Wood. This withdrawal marked the first time since the 16th Century that no foreign military forces were present in the Philippines.


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.