case head separation, 25-06

[bajabill]

Happened on the 3rd reload (4th firing).  Load was 49.3gr of H4350 and a 100gr Nosler BT.  I had necked sized this last time, probably FL sized somewhere along the way.  Headspace distance of the other brass that is still intact measures about .010 - .012 longer than unfired factory brass.  I have a go gage that I will work with some scotch tape and determine how the chamber compares.  I have my thoughts that it is associated with flexibility of the barrel lock-up to the frame.  The action will close on fired brass, and I have an extractor barrel so stuck cases is not an issue.

I have to study some things now to flush this out.

[quickdtoo]

You aren't the first to report the problem on the 25-06, close the action on one of those unsized fired cases(that isn't in two pieces!!) or one of the neck sized cases and hold the rifle sideways up to a light souce and see if you can see light between the barrel and standing breech above the level of the firing pin. It may appear to be closing, but it may not be fully closing.

Tim

[trotterlg]

I say this a lot, but here goes again:  Chamber a full length, primed empty case in the rifle.  Fire the primer, now measure how far the primer protrudes above the case, when fired the primer blows the case full forward and pushes the primer back to the breach, this will give you the headspace on your rifle.  .012 is too much.   Larry

[dpe.ahoy]

Larry, thanks.  I need to be told alot of times before I tend to remember, Like Graybeard, my mind(filing cabinet) is so full I gotta lose something to put anymore in.   DP

[safetysheriff]

baja'

i recommend that you forget using tape with the 'go' gauge.   the headspace measurement on the .25-06 is 2.0487" to 2.0587" at the shoulder diameter of .375".   in other words: from the breech bolt face to that .375" diameter on the shoulder you should get a distance of somewhere between 2.0487 and 2.0587 inches inclusive, per the NRA's  book 'Handloading'.  

i would use a 'no go' gauge to see if the headspace is within proper spec'.   if the chamber will close on that gauge then you are very near a problem.   if it won't close on that gauge, but does close on a 'go' gauge then all should be well.

a rifle can function if it 'swallows' a no-go gauge; but it then needs to be checked with a 'field' gauge.   if the rifle 'swallows' the field gauge then it is defective due to excess head space (unless the 'field gauge' itself were to be defective, of course!).

if you do a search of the web typing in :   measuring headspace   you will pull up some information that tells you how the gauges work.    how are you comparing fired and unfired brass and achieving your .010 to .012 inch difference?

i believe that larry's idea gives you an idea of headspace for the specific piece of brass you would use; but it is not a proper method of measuring the distance between the 'datum' point on the chamber's shoulder and the breech bolt face (for a couple reasons).   the angle of the shoulder on the cartridge, and the angle of the shoulder in the chamber are actually two slightly different angles to create the 'stoppage' of the cartridge moving forward past the datum point.   different mfr's brass is also different in how much it will spring back and how much it will resist the firing pins blow on the primer.    that's one reason you don't use brass from 'squib' loads on full-pressure loads later on (unless re-sizing with a ''false shoulder'').   a 'squib' load can actually set the shoulder back on a piece of brass if it's too soft, and then the brass can move forward if fired with a full-charge load the next time -- leading to a possible separation in the brass at that time.   

on one or more of the long-range competition sites you'll see that they didn't/don't like Federal brass for .223 Rem' rounds.   it is too soft and won't last long enough to give them the kind of longevity they desire.   

there is a lot to this, isn't there?

ss'

[trotterlg]

My opinion is the headspace only matters with the brass you shoot through it.  If you reload, you can adjust the dies to make the headspace anything you want it to be, so, no matter how the factory cut the chamber, you can size brass to fit it properly.  Now I know this is n't really a proper solution, but if the factory cut the chamber deep then, with a Handi rifle, there is no other fix other than trashing the barrel and starting over.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

If the barrel is factory fitted and it does indeed have any where close to .012" headspace, it needs to go back to H&R for replacement, that would be the first choice if possible. If it's a second hand barrel, I'd flat file the barrel face until a sized case is flush with the barrel face and then fit the barrel to a frame, I just did that with a spare 280 barrel last week, it was all it took to get it fitted along with a couple stone strokes on the latch shelf.  The other alternative for handloads as Larry mentioned is to make the brass fit, form a false shoulder on the brass to headspace on for fireforming, or seat bullets long enough to use the bullet against the lands so it can be fireformed to the chamber, then be sure to only size it enough to bring the case flush with the chamber face.

Tim

[knight0334]

I dont know if this was mentioned in prior posts.  ...but you can anneal and fireform new brass to a oversized chamber, then necksize the brass for reloads.  You end up with a slightly "improved" chambering.  Sometimes you split a case while fireforming, but for the most part you get a good one.   



I had an old boltgun 270 that had excessive headspace, but once I fireformed some brass to the chamber with subsequent necksizing it was a good shooter with typical brass life.

With the Handi's, its an option to help with excessive headspace on a rimless round.

[knight0334]

damn,  Tim beat me to it.

[safetysheriff]

larry,

the concern i have now is that he's got other handloaded brass -- that didn't fail --that allegedly has .010 to .012 inches more 'headspace' than factory fodder.   how does he know that; and how does he then use factory brass without a problem in such a long chamber if he is correct?

i agree that we can re-size brass for our own particular rifle(s) setting back the shoulder in a manner that makes our handloads safe for a long-chambered firearm.  however, how do we ever loan that rifle out to someone else who may use factory ammo' in it; or how do we sell it?    the best/safest practice is to keep headspace within SAAMI limits, really.

{i use .375 Win' brass (for its high working pressure capability) to put together brass for my .30-30 in a Marlin.   i do not set the die tight against the shell holder when so doing because the .30-30 headspaces on the rim.   obviously i don't want the shoulder constantly moving between fired and re-sized dimensions.   i hope to get longer life out of the brass this way.   i set the die to where the lever works easily and no strain is placed on the action.   none of these have been fired yet but i am confident that they will work very well.}   

ss'   

[trotterlg]

I did say it was an imperfect solution, but it is a solution.  Larry

[bajabill]

close the action on one of those unsized fired cases(that isn't in two pieces!!) or one of the neck sized cases and hold the rifle sideways up to a light souce and see if you can see light

Tim

that statement is correct




This barrel was factor fitted


I measure "headspace" with a case comparator, .375" dia insert.  I dont have any once fired brass to measure at this time to see what happens with the first shot. 

I only have a go gage, I added one piece of tape to the base, and the action closed on it.  I added 2 more, and the action closed but forced a gap between the barrel and frame - similar to closing on my fired case.  With these 3 pieces of tape on the go gage, it measures similarly to the fired case. 

[Fred M]

Zero head space is what you want in a Handi. That means the loaded shell should be flush with the face of the chamber.That is if you want more than three reloads. Head space per SE is not applicable in a Handi. Neither do you want the case sticking out. There is too much rubbish written about head space in a Handi. The Handi action stretches during firing and the flush point needs to be reestablished
each time you reload. Its just that simple.

[Dave Allen]

Baja..

I'f im reading correct you do see a gap between the barrel & standing breech,when the action is snapped closed ??

I had a 25/06 about 2 1/2 year's ago..mine had a visable gap when held up to light,i wound up sending it in to h&r i believe they "smoked" the latch.

Anyway it fixed it.Before the repair i blew a case-head also,i think it was after four resize's..

Good luck.

[cwlongshot]

Baja..

If I'm reading correctly, you do see a gap between the barrel & standing breech, when the action is snapped closed ??

I had a 25/06 about 2 1/2 year's ago..mine had a visible gap when held up to light, I wound up sending it in to h&r I believe they "smoked" the latch.

Anyway it fixed it. Before the repair I blew a case-head also, I think it was after four resize's..

Good luck.

 If you had space between the breech and rear of the barrel, nothing you can do to the latch will change that.
 Its more likely H&R replaced your barrel with another as it wasn't there practice to shim such barrels. Your problem was from a barrel lug that was cut too deeply for your action. It could have been fixed by shimming the hinge pin as I said. After that its IS LIKELY you would have needed to adjust the latch lockup, but not before.

 Also like Fred already mentioned, the action stretches upon firing. The design of the S.S. H&R/NEF/Contender action utilizing a forward hinge, better lends it self to a lo-pressure round. As it will "stretch" with the higher pressure rounds like the 25-06. I left out the Encore even thou it has a very similar action. as the Encore was designed explicitly for higher pressure cartridges. That is not to say it to doesn't stretch, its just better designed and built to handle that movement.

CW

[Dave Allen]

CW..i've long since tossed the receipt they sent back with the rifle..

This i know the receipt mentioned nothing of barrel replacement..

Maybe they did change it out & didn't mention for whatever reason..Dunno ??

I guess it's here nor there..I'm only stating if the original poster has a gap,he has problem's..

I'm out..

[cwlongshot]

I guess it's here nor there..I'm only stating if the original poster has a gap, he has problem's...

I'm out..

 Your spot on Dave. Gap there = Problems!!  No offence meant, just wanted the explanations clear.

CW