A Wheelwright Question

[Evil Dog]

Just about finished replacing the cheeks on my half-scale Napoleon and noted that the wheels are starting to loosen up a bit... as in sideways play... can see the spokes move laterally within the hub.  The question is how to tighten them back up again.  My first thought is just to fill them full of epoxy glue and hope for the best... somehow I doubt that would be the best solution though.  So... how to go about it?  Would appreciate any solution that has worked for you.  Thanks.

[Artilleryman]

Maybe you could drive glue covered wooden shims in to tighten them up. 

[thelionspaw]

I used Pro-bond type glue by Elmer's. I spray and injected H2O down in and let the glue expand. For what you are going to use the cannon for, that should do the trick BUT if the cavity is sizeable, YES I would sliver wedge with that glue. Actually, a little flex absorbes the shock that might split punky old felly and spoke. Poke the glue down and in as much as you can. The wheels are never going to be as good as new. Man! You cannot believe how much glue was drizzled into my hubs 25+ years ago and we're still rolling. The cones were set in glue too.  So you'll shake, rattle and roll. Gee!? Sounds like a song. Gerry Lee Lewis?

rc

[KABAR2]

Has this been stored indoors where it is good and dry?

I've read where people would lay their wagon wheels in a stream to tighten them up,

maybe that's all they need........

[GGaskill]

Evil Dog lives in the desert; I am sure the wheels weren't made in a desert so they may have shrunk from the low humidity environment.  I wonder if there is something they could absorb and then fix in the wood cells for a permanent fix.

[dan610324]

nooo Ive never been there or done that , but still I got an small idea what I would try in the same situation .
now Im not familar with american brands , but what I can understand so are thelionspaw talking about an polyurethan based glue .
thats the absolutely best type in the market today by my experiance .

then I would use the same method as Ive used many times tightening up old chairs .

as it is an half scale I would suppose its large enough to drill 1/4" holes in an suitable angel from the inside of the spokes that came out approximately in the center of the bottom surface of the spoke .

then you fill the hole with water and when it have moistered the wood in and outside the spoke and hub you fill the hole with polyurethan glue and use an 1/4" wooden stick of suitable length and knock it down that you got an hudraulic effect on the glue to be pressed into all spaces and then just wait until it have expand and hardened , but be sure you do all the spokes at the same time as the glue have an high force while its expanding .

dont cut the 1/4" sticks until it all have hardened , if you do it right you will have an wheel better then new I would say .
but be prepared with aceton and rags to remove all superfluous glue before it harden .
when its hardened you cant remove it by any other way then grinding , its harder then plastic .

but as I said , I have never done it on an wheel , so wait and listen to the other members , maybe any of them have had the same problem .

[thelionspaw]

There's a product called, "Chair-loc" that's sold in woodcraft catalogues. The company is in Lakehurst N.J.. It is used especially for chairs and is applied as Dan has outlined. Drill a hole and inject from the bottle. It swells the wood itself, to make a tight fit.  It is thinned with household ammonia. It is NOT a glue.

Your arid location is the enemy. My beast still loosens up while stored in my NE mountain garage where there is alot of moisture in the air.

Wheels need humidity. I've had hundred year old wheels that were outside and still tight until I brought them inside. Then the wood yawed, split and shrunk into total disaster.

As a by-the-by: Chairs were made with different species of wood in the same chair because the woods reacted differently from one-another. They wouldn't fall apart as in a single wood construction with equal drying in all parts.

rc

[torpedoman]

good cheap and permanate fix- Fill holes with antifreeze and allow wood to soak it up and expand it will not evaporate and will keep the fit snug basically it is the same thing as chair loc but a lot cheaper in big jugs.

[gary michie]

HI  :
 Well Your first mistake is GLUE ----- No glue  second louse fit---your fit must be so that you must drive the spokes in with a hammer I mean whale on them and third thing the tires must be on TIGHT. My 57" wheels have tires 3/8" shorter than the cir. of the compress fellows I mean no gap at all. You know that you are close when your wheels ring like bells.
When driving in the spokes use linseed oil as a lube then wet down the hub with linseed oil until the wood won't take any more .
Gary
Capt. 1st Michigan light artillery
WCWA
Spokane Washington

[dan610324]

yes of course thats correct when you produce an new wheel , but what to do with this wheel ??
if you already got an loose fit , its a bit difficult to make the spoke holes in the hub smaller .
and to make new spokes seem to be a bit overdoing the repair for me .

but as usual , just my thoughts .

[Evil Dog]

The wheels seemed tight when I bought them around 3 years ago.  All I did was paint them and mount them on the carriage.  They came from Custom Wagons in Nicholasville, Ky (they even have a picture of me with my cannon in their gallery).... I will presume it is a lot more humid there than here in the So Cal desert.  Drying out and shrinking would be a very definite possibility.  I like the idea of the anti-freeze soak, not sure why but just like the sound of it.  What I am thinking now is do the anti-freeze soak thing then a week or so later drive in some shim wedges and inject with Gorilla Glue.  Haven't been able to find hardwood wedges yet (except for those made for hammer handles) but the softer wedges designed to shim window and door frames are readily available at the local hardware stores.

[gary michie]

HI  :
The wheels are yours wheels and you know how much you wish to use them, but if it were me I would pull them apart if the spokes are loose, they are tampered both ways just cut a small piece off the end and reinsert in the hub with oil leaving the hub bands on and set them then reinstall the fellows make sure the pins don't come through the fellows and make sure they are tight to each other and on the lip at the end of the tapered part of the spoke and the start of the pin. cut a 1/8 or so out of the tire if just snug more if real loose,weld grind heat until a stick you rub leaves a black mark on the tire ,place on the wheel beat in too place with a lot of water to cool and STOP ALL FLAMES and oil with lots of linseed oil after the water has dried off.
Gary

[thelionspaw]

Before I'd do that, I'd buy new wheels unless I wanted a new hobby. Elmers Pro Bond does the same as Gorilla but it is ALOT less expensive.  The wedges need not be hardwood since you only wish to fill a gap with them. The expanding glue does the rest.

That  antifreeze sounds interesting.  I'm going to try it with some scrap. What's the scientific rational behind the chemical reaction? Where did you come-up with that trick? Chair Loc is expensive.

As Dan often says, if I may paraphrase him, "It's only my opinion".

rc

[Tropico]

Interesting wheel topic. I will be filing some of this info in my mind for usage on the boat, They're are many area's there that need swelling without the glues. Water tight is nice but some things need sealed as well and  must provide a sealed surface with a moving part !  Some interesting ideas here.

[dan610324]

yeah and you sure would need some new wheels on your carriages also   

I see on your pictures a few posts bact where there where some discussions about ladies and pirates .

the wheels doesnt look to good with big cracks in them ,

wouldnt be nice with an "flat tire" when you meet some other pirates at the sea 

I also remember an discussion a few weeks ago about to use laminated wood or not , if it was correct for the time era or not .

                              YES IT IS

the wheels on the vasa ships naval carriages was laminated .
the barrels was cast 1626 and the ship sunk 1628 .
so those wheels must have been produced there between .

I will be back here soon with some pictures , they are now in bmp format and this site doesnt acept that .

now they are in jpg , sorry if they are a bit small in size but they was much larger as bmp files .
dont know why it was like this .

[Cat Whisperer]

Anti freeze has PEG (polyethelyneglycol) in it.

PEG is also used in bending wood.  Marvelous stuff.

[accuratemike]

I know that if I spill some on the shop floor, the spot will get wet again, every time it gets even the slightest bit humid, no matter how well I try to dry it up. The stuff is "hydroscopic" (right term?) as heck. Maybe it will keep the joint wet for a long time. Seems plausable too. Good luck, MIKE

[Cannoneer]

author=Evil Dog

I like the idea of the anti-freeze soak, not sure why but just like the sound of it.  What I am thinking now is do the anti-freeze soak thing then a week or so later drive in some shim wedges and inject with Gorilla Glue.

 

Evil Dog,

 I've never used antifreeze to swell wood before so I cannot speak from experience, but I think it might be in your best interest to experiment with some scrap wood before you try this on your wheels; the Gorilla glue and/or Elmers TiteBond II might not adhere very well to the wood after it has been saturated with antifreeze.