Author Topic: Kingston NY City Hall  (Read 1510 times)

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Offline thelionspaw

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Kingston NY City Hall
« on: November 22, 2008, 03:19:06 AM »
A pair, 4 5/8" X 72"; zero marks except 4 digits by 1 trunion on 1 piece.
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 03:46:06 AM »
Fine looking guns!  ;D

Did you get any measurements?

They look a lot like 1857 Napoleon 12-pounders, but the lack of markings make them a mystery.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 04:59:48 AM »
I opened the post with, 4 5/8" bore and 72" extreme length. I didn't bother with anything else.  I wondered what went for scrap. Some day, if I try, I may find an old photograph on file in the visitors center. Maybe I don't want to know?  This town is small but very, very rich in 17th c. Dutch and American Revolution history. No telling what went.

Here's another image, just for goofs. I found it unidentified while surfing.
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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 06:12:12 AM »
The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1857, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.
Max

Offline Double D

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 07:06:04 AM »
The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1957, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.

1957?

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 07:15:02 AM »
     Thank you for posting those Kingston, NY Napoleons, Richard.  Those very nice photos give you the shape which pretty easily IDs them.  They really bring back some pleasant memories.  I saw them many times in the 70s.  Lots and lots of cannon are located within 40 miles of Kingston, NY, not just at the U.S.M.A. at West Point, NY, either.  After I left the Army I was a territory manager for a dairy products company and I lived on River Road in Ulster Park, NY, just south of Kingston;  I traveled extensively within a 50 mile radius of Highland, NY and one of my favorite places to have lunch was just south of Rhinbeck, NY where a really old cemetery with a cannon was located.  I was always impressed with that large rifle from the Civil War.  It had a tube that seemed to go on forever, really a long one compared to the 24 pdr. Flank Howitzers that you usually see in cemeteries.  It was a 4.5" Ordinance Rifle, Model 1861.  I wish I had a photo of it but I don't.

Thanks Richard,

Tracy

We found this 4.5" Ordnance Rifle in Portland, ME overlooking the harbor and Casco Bay.




Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 07:26:45 AM »
The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1957, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.

1957?

Yes DD, Eisenhower ordered these guns cast; of course this was done before he got suspicious of the military-industrial complex.
 
Quote
I wondered what went for scrap. Some day, if I try, I may find an old photograph on file in the visitors center. Maybe I don't want to know?  This town is small but very, very rich in 17th c. Dutch and American Revolution history. No telling what went.

Richard,

 I've also wondered, just how many of our historically significant iron cannons have been lost to WWII scrap metal drives.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 07:50:39 AM »
I opened the post with, 4 5/8" bore and 72" extreme length.

And I totally missed it, sorry. I was fixated on the photos.

Hey, it was early...


The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1957, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.

According to the plaque, these were presented in 1947. If that's accurate, how can they be 'model 1957'?

Misprint somewhere?

Offline leesecw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 08:48:25 AM »
Regarding the question of how many Historical cannons went into the WW2 scrap drives, at least here in Michigan quite a few. Bay City alone sent 8 along with some brought back there from Fort Sumpter including two 13 inch seacoast mortars. Link is
http://bay-journal.com    Use the search function. Somewheres I think there is an article that gives the numbers on the pieces but Im trying to think where it is.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 09:26:01 AM »
Regarding the question of how many Historical cannons went into the WW2 scrap drives, at least here in Michigan quite a few. Bay City alone sent 8 along with some brought back there from Fort Sumpter including two 13 inch seacoast mortars. Link is
http://bay-journal.com    Use the search function. Somewheres I think there is an article that gives the numbers on the pieces but Im trying to think where it is.

Thanks Leesecw, that's a fascinating article; it really is a shame that we lost these important artifacts.

"Yesterday afternoon there was an appropriate ceremony at the city hall when the two guns which had stood a mute guard over its entrance for years were jerked from their mountings and trucked away.

Left behind was a legend which informs the public that once there were cannons in the mountings"
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 10:24:17 AM »
Tracy: Give me better directions and I'll get you a photo. Also, where did you dine? I'm always hungry. My daughter went to Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson so I am reasonably familiar with the area. Been to the Aerodrome many times. Good WWI air shows.

Max: Could only find one set of numbers but it was 19 degrees and I just left Physical Therapy. I thought I had given them a good once-over.

El Paso Winery in Ulster Park was where I used to go. Nice wines. Haven't been there for a looong time. Having a stroke, puts a damper on some of life's little pleasures. Never saw any cannons in Port Ewan or there. I go through Woodstock and Saugerties alot. No cannons that I've ever seen.

I witched a well-site at the Woodstock Festival for the little "Dirt-Bags" near the mosh-pit. Turned some good coin on that dowsing gig.  I made a splash in alot of news papers with that one.  Let me know where you want pictures taken (if I can).

Have witching stick, cannon and camera; will travel.

Life has been a hoot!

Richard

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 11:26:18 AM »
I know of two cases where the cannon turned in for scrap drives never made it to the smelter

the German WWI Krupp field gun I crewed on was purchased after WW II from a scrap yard

by the owner's grandfather the grandson got it registerd as a DD,  there are two Span Am.U.S. breach loaders

no carriages that were found when a local scrap yard was closed down during the clean up a local

in the town began raising money for new wheels and carriages that was back in the late 1980's I left the

area in 2000 and they still weren't done. As the "green" movement pushes more scrap yards out of business

it's possible more cannon will surface from under piles of steel........
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 12:06:40 PM »
The rest of the markings that 12 Pounder Gun-Howitzer rimbase number 1147 once had are:

Mfg:  C.A. & Co.

Registry:  110

Date:  1862

Wt:  1228

Insp:  TJR

___________________

Markings that rimbase no. 1125 once had:

Mfg:  same

Registry:  either 92 or 93, not sure

Date:  1862

Insp:  TJR

Wt.  unknown

_______________________

The old inspection records are available and the remainder of the marks can be inferred if one unique mark is known, so that's what was done here.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 01:33:22 PM »
You the MAN; cannonmn. 8)
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 02:12:56 PM »
Okay, I'm confused. ???

What about the quote from Max Caliber?

Where and how did the 1957 date come about?

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 03:05:18 PM »
Lion, if you should get by there again some day you might leave the info on the original markings with the town clerk office.  Someone might take an interest and make up a small sign for each gun telling what kind it is and what the original markings were.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 06:16:15 PM »
Where and how did the 1957 date come about?

It was a typo for 1857, the model year of the Napoleon.
GG
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 08:44:18 PM »
 If it did indeed go for scrap during WWII, at least it was (hopefully) used for good purpose toward the war effort.

 I could live with that...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 04:51:16 AM »
Where and how did the 1957 date come about?

It was a typo for 1857, the model year of the Napoleon.

So...  I was right!  :) :D ;D

They look a lot like 1857 Napoleon 12-pounders

I suspected a typo somewhere.

One thing that made me unsure about my ID'ing of the guns was the relief for the rear sight mount.

I've noticed that some Napoleons have a provision for a sight mount while others don't. And among those that do, they seem to vary in configuration by manufacturer.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 06:37:32 AM »
cannonmn: Good idea. I'll suggest that to the historical bunch but I think it would be like putting perfume on a pig. If they were mounted at one of the historical stone buildings in the stockade district that the British agressively torched, there would be a chance but they are at the isolated City Hall.  rc 
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Offline Double D

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 06:58:49 AM »
The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1957, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.

1957?

Yes DD, Eisenhower ordered these guns cast; of course this was done before he got suspicious of the military-industrial complex.

BoomJ,

Can you clarify? Were you being facetious or did Eisenhower really order these guns cast thus the 1957 date?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2008, 07:42:16 AM »
KABAR2, your observations could be dead on target; reading about the drives, it seems like some of the materials that were asked for weren't really in all that short a supply. Hopefully more historic ordnance will turn up in scrapyards across the country, unfortunately there's also the fact that there are always going to be war profiteers, some of whom probably owned some of these yards, and after the war was over had some of these irreplaceable guns melted down for scrap and pocketted the filthy lucre they made on the sales, instead of trying to return them to the municipalities that they got them from.




"Iron and steel were a different story. These metals could be easily melted down and used for munitions. It's not as if the U.S. lacked domestic sources of iron ore, though. The real challenge was gearing up American industry for war production. That meant everything from increasing steel-making capacity to building more factories and designing better weapons. Recycling of steel and iron unquestionably helped. One campaign netted five million tons of steel in just three weeks, and scrap-metal drives continued for most of the war.

Useful though recycled steel and iron were, some scrap drives went overboard. In addition to old streetcar tracks, wrought iron fences, church bells, and the like, people carted off relics of previous wars, including cannons, park statues, and other memorials. When the memorials were being rebuilt after the war, many wished they hadn't been so hasty."

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2008, 07:47:45 AM »
The National Register lists two Alger Napoleons, model 1957, in Kingston, both with muzzle faces polished smooth, Numbers 1125 and 1147.

1957?

Yes DD, Eisenhower ordered these guns cast; of course this was done before he got suspicious of the military-industrial complex.

BoomJ,

Can you clarify? Were you being facetious or did Eisenhower really order these guns cast thus the 1957 date?

Douglas, that was one of BoomJ's feeble attempts at humor. OK, I guess I'm going to have to break down and start using the little yellow faces on a regular basis.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2008, 08:31:12 AM »
Boomer: Forget the "yellow faces" and just go back to sleep.

n.b.: During the war, it was often repeated in my home, that just before WWII, the 3rd Avenue El (NYC elevated subway) was bought and scrapped by Lipshitz and sold to the Japs who sent it back as bullets.  Who can say where our scrap went. 

People felt good about sacrificing our historical monuments for patriotism. Some today, even justify sacrificing lives. It is only now, after the fact, that we few have second thoughts. Look at what "we" (that's the "Royal We") are letting happen as cannonmn has pointed out, to our surviving historical pieces. We can't even get the military custodians off the pot to preserve what we have in their care.  He at least is rattling cages.

The cannons we admire are rotting away. Maintain them? I won't even be able to get a 3x5 card placed to identify 2 of them.

Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here". Can/will any of us take the responsibility to maintain any of our local artillery history?  Pick a cannon; do your best; give a day.

rc

rc
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Offline Double D

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2008, 08:58:41 AM »

Douglas, that was one of BoomJ's feeble attempts at humor. OK, I guess I'm going to have to break down and start using the little yellow faces on a regular basis.


I kind of figured that, but it had the ring of truth and I had to be sure.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 09:24:22 AM »
Boomer: Forget the "yellow faces" and just go back to sleep.

n.b.: During the war, it was often repeated in my home, that just before WWII, the 3rd Avenue El (NYC elevated subway) was bought and scrapped by Lipshitz and sold to the Japs who sent it back as bullets.  Who can say where our scrap went. 

People felt good about sacrificing our historical monuments for patriotism. Some today, even justify sacrificing lives. It is only now, after the fact, that we few have second thoughts. Look at what "we" (that's the "Royal We") are letting happen as cannonmn has pointed out, to our surviving historical pieces. We can't even get the military custodians off the pot to preserve what we have in their care.  He at least is rattling cages.



The cannons we admire are rotting away. Maintain them? I won't even be able to get a 3x5 card placed to identify 2 of them.

Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here". Can/will any of us take the responsibility to maintain any of our local artillery history?  Pick a cannon; do your best; give a day.

rc

rc

Roger Wilco, nix on the emoticons, and I'll go take a nap now, but be forewarned, Rip Van Winkle I aint. 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 09:59:14 AM »
      Richard,   To answer your question, I will have to admit an error.  I named Rhinebeck as the location of the cemetery and cannon, but actually it was Red Hook, a few miles north.  My bag lunches were also there, but I stopped once at the Beekman Inn in Rhinebeck and could only afford a shrimp cocktail, so that tells you a bit about that place.  If you go there, brings lots o' dough. 

     Anyway, the big old siege rifle is located on the south edge of Red Hook near the gentle curve in Rte. 9 that, going north, changes from almost due north to north north east.  The St. Paul's Lutheran Church is at 7412 S. Broadway and the Cemetery is at 7370 S. Broadway.  The Oldest graves around 1804-1830 are on the east side of Rte. 9 and the cannon on the west side not far off the road.  The official cemetery report in 1914 mentioned that the cemetery was in a state of total neglect, so you might have to look a bit to find that long rifled tube there amid the weeds.  Thanks for posting the Kingston Napoleons!

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 10:27:52 AM »
Red Hook?!  They make a great IPA.  Washes the sulpher taste out of your mouth after a long day shooting cannnons.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 12:01:21 PM »
  :o :o :o :o :o :o :o I had a terrible nightmare and woke up, I hope I have permission to stay awake for awhile. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Red Hook?!  They make a great IPA.  Washes the sulpher taste out of your mouth after a long day shooting cannnons.

I had to look it up to see what it was, thought you were talking about some fine wine, India pale ale, I'll have to check it out.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Kingston NY City Hall
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2008, 01:20:27 PM »
Tracey: O.K.. I know the cemetery. It may take me a while to go there but it is now on my "To-Do" list to take the photo of your cannon. You probably stopped in at the Red Hook diner. On the list of national historic places. I know the couple who owned. They just sold it. An unchanged classic. I've been to the Beekman Inn in Rhinebeck. Over rated.  I THINK they have a cannon?  I'll check it out. 

Boomer: Send me your address. I have something "jazzy" for you.

rc

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