Author Topic: Black powder vs. substitutes  (Read 1042 times)

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Offline glshop20

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Black powder vs. substitutes
« on: November 30, 2008, 04:12:21 AM »
I am working up a load for a very old .36cal percussion rifle.  When I first got it the sights were not usable with my aging eyes(way to small and low) I shot it a few times with 30grs. 3F Black powder .350 ball and .015 patch.  To my surprise it grouped fairly well considering the sights and my eyes.  I replaced the sights with ones that I can file to point of aim and tried shooting it with 30grs. also 25grs. of 3F American Pioneer BP substitue same ball and patch.  It was all over the place.  I like the American Pioneer powder for ease of cleaning but have no objection to using BP.  CAN THE POWDER MAKE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE?  dO SOME GUNS JUST PREFER THE REAL THING?  THANKS,  WALT

Offline jgalar

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 04:45:44 AM »
I can use AP in my 32 and shoot all afternoon without any cleaning. For the first shot I use a spit patch, the rest are loaded dry using the AP's lube left over from shooting. If you are using a lube with the AP that may be your problem.

Offline glshop20

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 05:00:36 AM »
I am using lubed patches.  I did order some .018 pillow ticking to try.  I have heard you should treat it with a silicone spray and not use lube.  Thanks for the reply. ANY FURTHER SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 07:57:45 AM »
try Pyrodex P.   APP they say absorbs moisture very easily and goes bad fast.

Offline flintlock

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 10:00:40 AM »
When your groups opened up, what did the spent patches look like???
You can't have good groups without good patching, a tight fit and good lube, the propellent is actually secondary...

I prefer Goex because I shoot flintlocks, I have never owned a percussion gun...

Work with your patching and lube so when you recover the patches they look like they could be used again, then worry about powder charges and type powder...

I used SnoSeal for over 25 years with no problems as a patch lube, I now make my own out of bees wax, castor oil and Murphy's Oil soap...If you have nothing else, Crisco also makes a good lube...


Offline jgalar

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 02:58:25 AM »
Don't use any lube with AP. Before shooting I swab the barrel out with alcohol to remove any preservative then use a spit patch to get the first shot down the barrel. After the first shot there is enough slipperiness to easily seat the next shots. If you use lube with AP it makes a gooey mess.

Offline captchee

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 03:47:23 AM »
As a previous poster stated . You need to start reading your patches and find out whats happening . The patch will tell you .

another thing to keep in mind is that the  synthetic powders often are not direct equivalents.
 I believe Pyro states that a reduction of 10 grains is needed  in volume to be = to BP 
T7 if I recall correctly is 15 grains  but I could be wrong .
 The other thing to remember is that it acts differently in it pressure curve .
 While the burn rate is still very fast , its still  has a higher ignition point  and slow enough burn to be a propellant .
 The trick will be finding the charge for that powder  that will  give you the same results as BP .

Working up a lod is a  game if minuets.
 Changing  just thousands of thickness in the patch can change  you pattern.
Changing lubes  also has an effect
Changing .05 in ball size has an effect
 Different powders have different effects   based on their pressures and burn rates

 That all being said  I have found no  synthetic that  takes the place of BP  in my rifles . They all have their negatives , just as BP does .
 It all comes down to what works best for you .

Offline glshop20

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 02:32:39 PM »
Thanks to all for the help.  I will keep trying different things.  I did recover some of the shot patches and they appeared to be in good shape. 

Offline beethoven

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 03:09:07 PM »
I have used BP, Swiss and Goex, Trip 7 and Pyrodex in my .36 Blue Ridge. I currently use .35 grs. of Trip 7 and have gotten very good accuracy, little fouling and good ignition. Obviously I shoot percussion. For target shooting I  like the ease of loading and higher rate of fire I get from the cleaner powder. When I shot flintlock I used 40 grs. of Swiss but still had to wipe out fouling between each shot in order to load the next. I think the Hogdon instructions say to usr a 15% load reduction to replicate a specific load. Hope this helps.

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 05:25:07 AM »
I use same volume Pyrodex P as GoexFFg
I do use Pyrodex RS and GoexFF in my 62 smoothbore
I started using KIK powder recently and like the results. KIK is real powder, and I find it to be equal to Goex
Check out their prices on Powder Inc. Just type that into google to go to their web site

Below are Thompson/Center Arms' suggested loads from a paper publication of theirs, printed in October of 1980.  FPS = feet per second at muzzle. Ft-lbs = foot-pounds of energy at muzzle. Grains listed after projectile type represent bullet weight.

Seneca, 36 caliber
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs
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Offline Shawnee Gene

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 10:31:33 PM »
Try GOEX Pinnacle.  It was formulated to replicate BP as closely as possible.
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 01:30:54 AM »
For your groups to have opened up that much, I don't think its the powder you are using.  There might be a small change, but it shouldn't be drastic.  Dumb question - there isn't any play in the new sights, is there?

I use BP and Pyrodex in my rifles.  I have always used natural lubes (No petroleum ingredients) on the patch, such as pyrodex or Ox Yoke lube, and it has always worked well, keeping fouling soft, and maintaining accuracy.  Usually when you loose accuracy in what was a formerly proven ball / patch combo, its because of fouling.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 02:13:52 AM »
From what folks are saying, it sounds like the APP doesn't like lubed patches.  Round balls need lube.  Sounds to me like you're going to be using Goex.  I don't really see what the big deal is, you've got to clean them all, and an ounce or two of windex and a few patches will clean Goex up with ease.

Offline captchee

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 03:28:02 AM »
 Again this is just my take on it and other results may very . I  shoot in  about 25-30 lbs of powder a year  and this is what I have found . But again others results my very .

 When working up a load  for a rifle  we know that changing  small things like Lube , patch thickness , ball size  and amount of powder  have a great effect on  the end result .
 If you  used AP  to get the first group  and have not changed  the make up of you load  and only changed the sights . Well then  its  probably the sights  that’s giving you the issue . Which would mean you  actually had the other sights performing better then these new ones  

 If however you went from  BP to  using AP , my bet is that  it’s a combination of the  powder and the new sights .. If the sights are solid  and of a design that will  prove consistent, then the problem is with the powder .
 Did by chance you change to a peep sight ? If so  it may take you alittle time to naturally stop fighting the alignment of the sight .  Some folks have a problem with that and until they get used to the sight picture  , they are all over the paper

 With powder 5 grains can change  things  , sometimes dramatically  and make the difference from shooting a 6 to 8 inch group and shooting a 2 to 4 inch group . Depending on the barrel and rifling , it can make the difference in shooting a 1 to 2 inch group .
 This isn’t just with synthetic powder . Differences in BP manufactures  also  have this problem .
Swiss is hotter the Goex . Goex is hotter then the old DuPont, all of which are hotter then Elephant  
  The same order I find to hold true in how clean  they shoot as well .

 See  different Charcoals make for different burn rates and hotter  charges , thus higher  barrel pressures
 But this gets compounded when you  compare synthetics to BP .
 While they are listed as an equivalent, that  equivalent is based on a few things  but te biggest is    
  the way its measured . But the other numbers are sometimes greatly different .
Take the pressures for instance . While velocity increases are sometimes marginal , the pressures for like loads are not .
 But remember how they achieve that pressure is different . This is why synthetics are considered propellants where BP is considered an explosive. They are different in their burn

 If we take the numbers NW hunter posted   and forget about the flbs and just look at velocities .  We see we have a 140fps increases   between 40 and 50 grains . 256 between 40 and 60 grains

 If we look at the compression  that Lyman gives  fro the 36 cal  with a RB twist of 1-66 and a 26 inch barrel  
 We can see that there really isn’t much difference.
 40 grains of 2f goex  is giving  FPS  at 1878 . Pyro RS - 1954  
  Goex 3F , 40 grains  , fps = 2070 . Pyro , select  =1982

 But if we through  caution to the wind  and were using say goex 2F and then someone said to try  pyro P  you just change your  velocity by  225 fps . That computes to a change in trajectory
 BUT here is the big change  Pressure
  Lets say you were  using 40 grains of 3F  Goex in your 36 .
. That  40 grains will produce approximately  9,900 PSI . but that same charge of Pyro RS = 11,800. Pyro select  16,400 . Pyro P 16,100.

 So lets say you went to that 40 grain charge because while working up a load , you found that 40 grains gave a better  group then 50 grains .
 Why ? Well  that’s from many things but the tell tail  compression is  pressure not velocities ..
 That 50 grain charge of Goex  produces roughly   10,400 PSI .
  So if  50 grains of  3f Goex gave a worse group then 40 grains of goex which only  produced 9900. we have to assume that  any  pressure higher then that will effect your group  . So  the Pyro charges would  be even worse  as  even Pyro RS is achieving  1400 PSI more  at 40 grains then a charge of 50 grains of goex .
 If we look at the PSI numbers for  both Pyro  select and  Pyro P  and compare it to that same 50 grains of  Goex , we are looking at 9200 PSI difference within the bore , for the same volume of powder .

 So    see its important to know what your shooting in powder  and what that powder is doing . don’t just look at velocities and say  ahhh its close  because the case very well maybe that its truly not .
 What AP numbers are , I don’t know . I know I have tried it and  never got the groups I  achieved using BP  without reducing the load significantly  lower then suggested .  Which in turn reduced my FPS and thus effected the  down range energy .
 The reason for this I believe is the pressure and its pressure curve  within the barrel .

So my suggestion would be   ‘ IF you have changed powders “ . through out the numbers  and work up a load for  the AP . Once you have that  accuracy  your looking for then go back and  look at the velocity and down range energy and see if its producing what you feel you need .

 Sometimes  what looks  the same , isn’t really the same .

 Do what the other fellas have said here . Check your sights  and if they are solid, ask yourself if  you honestly think if maybe the problem simply is the case that you have not gotten used to them yet .
 If neither is the case then I would look at your powder  and if you changed it . If you haven’t , then it has to be the sights  . If you have ? Well then  your going to have to work up a load for that powder and  find a load that your rifle likes  when using that powder .

Offline JBlk

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Re: Black powder vs. substitutes
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2008, 06:57:59 AM »
I have been experimenting with my Lyman  Great Plains Rifle.I use 10 Grains of  Goex FFFG topped with 70 grains of pyrodex RS.I prime with about four grains of black powder of FFFG in my .54 and she works well every time.I use a linen patch with a homemade lube of Crisco, olive oil and bees wax.The patching material is thin enough to allow a fit that makes for easy loading shot after shot.I have fired a pound of FFFG black powder with this lube without cleaning and maintained good groups at POI.The biggest problem that I find with the Lyman lock is finding a flint that properly fit and gives good life.I have settled on a flint that is no longer than 1/2 inch and 3/4 inches wide, being not thicker than 1/4 inch at its widest point.When making your lube mix the Crisco and olive oil in about equal amounts and then thicken with bees wax used frugally.Keep experimenting until you get a lube that you can use in all weather conditions.