Author Topic: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 10:13:51 AM »
JVS,
    I guess making fun of me is a lot easier than admitting you were wrong.  It is your right to blame the government and feel sorry for the poor banks and people who were manipulated by them.  I simply choose to be open minded enough to realize that it took more than the Gov. to cause this problem.  The Gov. could make all the laws they wanted to, but it still took the banks cooporation and greedy people borrowing more money than they could possibly pay back.  I guess right now if I said the sky was blue you would tell me it was red just to argue with me.  You have your opinion and I have mine, and right now my opinion is you are too blinded by anger to actually take the time to process the information before you and make an informed opinion. 

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
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A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2008, 10:56:10 AM »
JVS,
    I guess making fun of me is a lot easier than admitting you were wrong.  It is your right to blame the government and feel sorry for the poor banks and people who were manipulated by them.  I simply choose to be open minded enough to realize that it took more than the Gov. to cause this problem.  The Gov. could make all the laws they wanted to, but it still took the banks cooporation and greedy people borrowing more money than they could possibly pay back.  I guess right now if I said the sky was blue you would tell me it was red just to argue with me.  You have your opinion and I have mine, and right now my opinion is you are too blinded by anger to actually take the time to process the information before you and make an informed opinion. 

Heather

If you would take the time to read my signature, you would readily see that I do indeed admit the sky is blue....            And White.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2008, 01:38:42 PM »
JVS,
    I guess making fun of me is a lot easier than admitting you were wrong.  It is your right to blame the government and feel sorry for the poor banks and people who were manipulated by them.  I simply choose to be open minded enough to realize that it took more than the Gov. to cause this problem.  The Gov. could make all the laws they wanted to, but it still took the banks cooporation and greedy people borrowing more money than they could possibly pay back.  I guess right now if I said the sky was blue you would tell me it was red just to argue with me.  You have your opinion and I have mine, and right now my opinion is you are too blinded by anger to actually take the time to process the information before you and make an informed opinion. 

Heather

If you would take the time to read my signature, you would readily see that I do indeed admit the sky is blue....            And White.

That was kind of my point!  But it's nice to see that your anger is being replaced with sarcasm.  ::)

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline jvs

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2008, 02:33:17 PM »
How can one person be so consistently wrong? 

Even though you are entitled to an opinion, and to state that opinion, you should be taking more care into being correct.  I am not angry, nor was I angry.  Not sarcastic either.  It's just that people like you bore the hell out of me.

In some cases being consistent is a virtue, in your case being consistently wrong only makes you look like an azz.   I have hope for you in the long run though.  As soon as your ears stop closing when your mouth opens, you'll be just fine.

Enough of this.  Have fun.



 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2008, 02:58:21 PM »
How can one person be so consistently wrong? 

Even though you are entitled to an opinion, and to state that opinion, you should be taking more care into being correct.  I am not angry, nor was I angry.  Not sarcastic either.  It's just that people like you bore the hell out of me.

In some cases being consistent is a virtue, in your case being consistently wrong only makes you look like an azz.   I have hope for you in the long run though.  As soon as your ears stop closing when your mouth opens, you'll be just fine.

Enough of this.  Have fun.





Wow those sure are some harsh words coming from someone who isn't angry and doesn't even know me. 

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2008, 03:48:00 PM »
jvs, if you would take the time to read the material you provided then you would see that you are indeed wrong. I really don't care what your problem is but I have had enough I thought after the last pm you was done but I see that your ultimate goal was to be banned for what ever reason and now you are so have a nice life elsewhere...

Quote from: jvs
So get off my ass or delete my membership, makes no matter to me jack-ass.  How's that?
Now..... How's that!


Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2008, 05:42:02 AM »
"he let energy companies plunder the public."

Amazing how many people forget there are 535 people that run this place....seems everyone wants to point at one person.

Until the people wise up and figure out all policies are written and laid on "his" desk....or not written and laid on "his" desk...nothing will ever change and people will always be looking to ONE person to fix everything up.  Meanwhile...535 people get away with nobody looking at them at all.

How odd this all is.  Government was set up so "he" can't do much of anything by himself.  Or SHE...depending on who the lucky person is that gets pointed at. 

Besides...any energy problem we might have goes way back in time anyways...most problems due to government putting their gingers in it in the first place.
First their fingers...then their hands...pretty soon the whole arm gets into it.

Well...I guess we can all blame everything on one person if it makes us feel better.  Personally...I blame the American people as a whole,  they elect those 535 people that can't seem to keep their fingers out of things. 

My opinion...I'm sure they vary some.


Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2008, 10:57:28 AM »
Well...I guess we can all blame everything on one person if it makes us feel better.  Personally...I blame the American people as a whole,  they elect those 535 people that can't seem to keep their fingers out of things. 

I second that....
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2008, 11:59:23 AM »
Surely, you don't buy into that supply-  -demand crap....??

most I have talked to as of late do but they also buy into a lot of other stuff I don't.
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2008, 02:55:20 AM »
You give the President way too much credit for the economy. Didn't Bush support drilling for more oil to increase the supply and drop prices? Isn't the liberals who are opposed to drilling and increasing the supply in the name of the environment? Who really is trying to manipulate high oil prices? The liberals would love nothing more than to have high oil prices to drop usage and "save" ourselves from acts of environmental genocide and global warming. The world demand for crude went down, so the oil speculators would not give as much for a barrel of crude. As the speculators' expectations went down, so did the price of oil. It dropped pretty fast, because no one was willing to pay the price. The world demand dropped; the supply remanded the same, so prices dropped. It was not just oil prices. Commodities have dropped dramatically too, for the same reasons crude oil dropped. The middle east oil cartel dropped oil production trying to drop supply, but the demand was still dropping and so the prices continue to go down. When the supply drops enough or demand increases, prices will soon go up or stabilize. Supply needs to be balanced with demand to stabilize prices.

Yep - I believe in supply and demand. It is a very basic concept. The problem is government has to stick their nose in and tweak it. Subsidies are just one thing that can really mess it up. The Government props up certain sectors by giving them money to supplement their incomes from the sale of certain products. If left to demand, the prices would drop and some would go out of business. When the supply drops to a point of not supplying the demand, prices would increase, making more incentive to get back into it again. After a few cycles, it would stabilize, with a balanced amount of supply and demand. If the demand was never there, then the supply would be worthless and no one would be there to supply. But that is what it is all about. Demanding supply and supplying the demand. In certain cases there have been a supply and marketers have generated the demand. The demand and supply drives prices, if left alone.

The stock market is another prime example of supply and demand. When some one wants to sell off stocks, he must find some one to buy. If no one wants to buy at his selling price, he must lower the selling price until some one is willing to buy it. If you are looking to buy stock you must find some willing to sell it. It might take 5% more that the original owner paid for it, it may be 10%. It depends on how many people are willing to part with their stocks. If not many, then you have to keep raising the price you are willing to buy for to entice someone to sell. This drives stocks up. If you want to sell and can not find any one, you keep lowering your price until some one does buy it - driving down stock prices. When a stock gets to the point of no one willing to buy it - it becomes worthless. The company the stock belongs to goes out of business, because it does not have any value. There are factors that make stock worth more (demand) or less too, like stock dividends. If the stocks are giving no dividends for a long period of time, then it becomes worthless, because no one willing buy them - the business the stocks are tied to is losing money. When the assets of the company can not cover the business losses and the stock prices drop very low, there is nothing the company has to borrow against to keep going. Then you have no one wanting to buy that stock (invest) and the company will go belly up. Very simplified but it is supply and demand.

Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2008, 05:01:42 AM »
TM7 - I agree it is when government sticks their nose in that the supply and demand gets out of whack. There is nothing simple and there are a lot of little influences. The biggest is our government. They do it to "help someone out"; artificially propping them up. They should have just went out of business, for either poor management or no/low demand for their product and found another line of work or product where they can make a profit - legally. It works just as well when the market goes down, it is just that it is going to hurt people financially and the government thinks it has to step in and prevent it from happening. They think they must manipulate the economy for everyone's good. As along as the economy is growing, not as much government interference and it works better. I have enjoyed this little discussion TM7, not putting you down in the least and feel I am not getting put down - a good discussion. ;D

A few of my thoughts
The auto industry is another prime example of a business in trouble that we going through right now. The government is thinking about a bail out. Well that goes against my basic line of thinking. We do need them - to a point. There are a lot of jobs that would be lost; directly and indirectly. But if they went under, there are other companies that would step up production and fill the demand, creating jobs directly and indirectly. It would take a little while for them to gear up to supply the demand, but the way the economy is going right now, there is not a whole lot of demand. The problem is wages in general would go down and prices could go up until the supply meets the demand if there is a demand. Once the wages drop and people can not afford to buy cars, prices would drop so that people could buy them. Nothing is simple. 

The only thing that the government should do is to make sure the business are "playing fairly". Unfortunately for the name of profits, some businesses will price gouge when the market demands goes artificially/temporarily high. This happens when people have discretionary income to buy items above and beyond their absolute needs. When Y2K was coming around the corner, people were buying gas powered generators so much, the supply could not keep up with demand. So companies were charging more and getting it. They did not charge what the they probably could have got, for fear of a government investigation. Of course after ward and there was no such panic, they could not even hardly give away generators and prices dropped. The use of insider trading secretes to get a jump on the rest of the business world is against the law as well it should be. They need to make sure business are treating employees fairly and safely. With out any over site some businesses would exploit workers to make a buck. That is only a few examples of government interference that is needed IMHO, but mostly just over seeing for the combined interests of the people in general, not interfering with business. Beyond that, the government should stay out and leave the economy alone. No hand outs for businesses or individuals. Let the private sector - Family, neighbors, churches, community organizations are a few examples - take care of individuals. They need to protect our borders, overseas business interests, our security, basic laws and the Constitution (our rights), but not if a business goes under or how they do business. If a company is poorly managed or no one wants what they are producing, let them go, that is what free enterprise is about.

I know that there are a lot of folks that do not agree with the way I think about this and some other things. They do not agree for what ever the reason, it does not matter. Disagreement is one of our basic freedoms, thank our forefathers for that. They have fought wars to ensure this freedom. So go ahead and disagree with my thoughts. Just do not forget my thoughts are mine and I have as much right to them as you do yours. I believe there are a few people in this forum that want to "shout" somebody down or tell them they are stupid, simply because they do think like they do or think they are being put down. I am personally sick of it. I certainly do not like it when someone does it to me, but I do not like it when it happens to someone else either. I have not intentionally put any one down for their thoughts. If I want to put some one down - it will be very clear - not inferred. I can not recall a time I put someone down intentionally. I do enjoy a discussion and some times I throw ideas out there for that purpose, not to put an individual down. Good Luck to EVERYONE and may God Bless.
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline Heather

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2008, 05:53:23 AM »
Yes...it is always nice to have a decent discussion without the polemics and the ad ho menins.  In fact, in ancient Greece there was a time when it was essentially illegal to shirk from controversy.  How far have we wondered from that standard of personal analysis and involvement.

Supply - demand may have once described market flucations in the old economies. Nowadays, it is used to disguise what is collectively known as price fixing and market super-insider manipulation. Government is the sales force and information dispensor for the super insiders. Forgive me if I sound cynical, but nothing happens of major consquence unless it is planned imo.

...TM7

In my opinion it is possible that since big oil has their hands in so many other industries that they are lowering the price of fuel to stimulate purchasing in the retail sector this holiday season.  Ya know give people a since of security so they spend what little money they have. Then after everyone has spent their savings they jack the prices back up?   There are so many possible ulterior motives for the flucation of fuel, but I choose to believe the above because the others scare me and make me think that we are way more screwed than we already are.

Heather
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A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline jimster

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Re: Here Is my opinion on our current economic crisis and how we got here.
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2008, 06:03:42 AM »
"If a company is poorly managed or no one wants what they are producing, let them go, that is what free enterprise is about."

Agreed!


I think most everyone on here is smarter than I am as far as having gobs of info and numbers and data.  I still tend to keep things simple and basic because that always works, and I don't think making things complicated actually help people make the right choices.
It's simple...if you don't have it, you don't spend it. Tough!  
If they tell you lots of people will get hurt if you don't bail them out...you just figure lots of people are going to get hurt anyways because you can't pay an enterprise to not function well....forever.  It's going down anyways.  Only now with more billions of our money because of some knee jerk reaction of a bunch of people who all make things too complicated.  

What good is all the data when the basic concept of letting failure happen gets tossed out the window?  Trying to prop it up using money I earn and printing a bunch more money is not logical using basic math.  

I also agree with the idea that disagreements are a good thing and causes a lot more deep thinking for everyone,  I think everyone on this site is great, and very intelligent,  and I have learned many small details I did not know from reading all of it.  
The only time I get my dander up is when people all point to whoever is president and just blame that one person....because I know that there are people that have been sitting in Congress for decades and went through many presidents.  I also know that they have been into government intervention and making the wrong choices longer than some of us have been adults.  Now if I put my thinkin cap on...I can also logically say,  people voted to keep them there.  

So who's fault is it really when things don't work out?  Senator Obama will be the next guy to get pointed at....because the plans in place for all these bailouts are not going to work out.  I will bet this liberal senator is already starting to find out and realize that the things he ran on are not going to work so hot now...I see some backpeddling already.  Probably because someone on the economic team reminded him that the only people who work for poor people......ARE IN WASHINGTON!