.475 Linebaugh more powerful than .454 Casull?

[jphendren]

Hello,

I keep reading all over the net that the .475 Linebaugh is more powerful than the .454 Casull.  I'm not trying to start an argument, but I cannot find any .475 loadings that generate more kinetic energy than some of the various .454 Casull loadings.  In fact, Hornady has a current .454 load that generates 172ft/lbs more than the stoutest .475 loading that I could find on the net.  I realize that the .475 punches a bigger hole, but how does equate into more "power?"  From what I can tell, "power" is measured in energy, which is measured in ft/lbs.  Am I wrong in this assumption?

Here are some the various factory loadings that are available:

Hornady

.454 Casull - 240gr XTP/Mag @ 1900fps = 1923ft/lbs (I have seen boxes of this ammo that ran 2000fps, as claimed on the box)
                  300gr XTP/Mag @ 1650fps = 1814ft/lbs

.475 Linebaugh - 400gr XTP @ 1300fps = 1501ft/lbs

Buffalo Bore

.475 Linebaugh - 350gr @ 1500fps = 1748ft/lbs

Grizzly Cartridge Co.

.475 Linebaugh - 425gr @ 1300fps = 1595ft/lbs
                       375gr @ 1540fps = 1751ft/lbs (This is the stoutest .475 load that I could find)

I am not trying to start a flame war here, just trying to understand why people say that the .475 is more powerfull than the .454.

Let me know you thoughts, or if you know of a .475 load that exceeds 1923ft/lbs.

Jared

[Ken ONeill]

Good grief. Not another Kinetic Energy ( which squares velocity) vs Momentum vs Taylor TKO THEORY. Leave me out.
I will simply say I have killed a variety of big game, primarily African, with the .454 using 260-300 gr. bullets. I have also killed a variety of big game primarily in North and South America with the .475 Linebaugh using 400-420 gr. bullets. It all died.
For my money, give me the .475 Linebaugh for both accuracy and terminal ballistics. It has proven its superiority to me with the bullet weights mentioned. The visual difference in impact on game is noticeable. With ultra heavy bullets approaching 400 gr., I believe that the .454 can be made to approximate a .475 Linebaugh. Pick what you want. Shoot a bunch of game. Decide.
The BULLET is likely far more important than the cartridge case in these discussions. The high Kinetic Energy 240 gr. bullet you illustrate is last on the list of what I would personally choose and is a perfect example of relying only on squared velocity as the primary argument in killing power.
I'm not necessarily a "biggest bore is better" guy. I prefer the .475 Linebaugh to the .500WE, for example. But any of these 3 cartridges will kill anything alive, given proper loads (as will the 1.6" giants, obviously).
Don't fall victim to theories and armchair hunters who've killed 6 head of game.

[Redhawk1]

Great post Ken.
I like big holes.

[Sweetwater]

Very well posted!!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[fowler]

Ken's post is very accurate as always. With handguns you simply can not use rifle philosophies, they just do not generate the energy that just about any rifle will produce, heck even a 30/30 generates 1600 pounds of energy and not many people would hunt elk with a 30/30. Anyways a handgun kills with a big hole and penetration not shock. So that having been said the bigger, wider the meplat is the bigger the hole will be and the more damage will be done if the penetration is all equal. Now than a longer bullet will penetrate deeper than a shorter one and so long bullets like the 475 Linebaugh with the 425gr will penetrate a long ways, more than a equal weighted bullet in 50 cal would produce because of better sectional density.

All of this being said I like big bullets not big recoil so I run big bullets at modest speed and they will kill just fine. I like the 475 Linebaugh with a 425gr bullet at 1050fps or so, in the 45 colt I like 335 to 360gr bullets at the same speed.

When it is all said and done put a heavy for caliber, hard cast bullet in the boiler room of any big game animal and they are going to die, its just some calibers will kill a little quicker than others. Of course shoot 100 animals at the exact same range in the exact same place and they will all react a little differently so proving anything it subjective. Choose the bullet/gun that you are most confident it, comfortable with, and has the most power you can manage.

[Lloyd Smale]

perfectly said ken. If i wasnt so ugly id claim you as a twin. In my opinion the 475 has it hands down over a 454. Just like you im a big bore fan and probably shoot more 500 linebaughs then 475s but ill be the first to step up and say that i believe the 475 is the best of the big bore rounds. It gives the best combo of bullet weigth meplat and penetration of any of the big bores. Sure the 500 may meet or exceed it if you load bullets in the 500 grain range up to pressure but the recoil with loads like that take it way out of the fun range. A 400-420 grain lfn or swc at 1200 fps will hammer about anything you shoot with it and it wont rip the skin off your hand doing it. Bottom line is the 454 475 and 500 are all fine calibers and great hunting guns but if i was going to africa and was only allowed one gun it would probably be a 475. As to the book that has those ft lb of energy figures you can make good use out of it by ripping out the pages and bringing it to camp and sitting them in the outhouse.

[Ken ONeill]

Twins ? Hey, that means I'd need an Elmer !

[efremtags]

Most of these posts are on the money.

The problem with KE calcs is it relies too heavily on velocity. Handun rounds are not really prone to too much performanc benefi from velocity, as the hot rounds still are stone throw slow compared to rifle rounds. Because of this, the bullets perform differently. The better big game rounds rely on 0 expansion (IE hardcast).

A better measure of performance is momentum (p = mV), which relies on mass as an equal contributor (with KE velocity is squared K=1/2mv2). Momentum offers performance that favors heavy bullets over fast bullets. a 55gr 22 driven at 2500fps will outmatch the 475 in KE. Would you shoot an elephant with this round?

Dangerous game performance is optimal at 475 bore as shown by the more popular DG rounds (470NE). With comparable bullet weight and velocity, the 475 offered better penetration and power over a 458 bore. It offered better penetration than the 50 bore. This is actually how the 475 got its start, becasue the 50 did not offer as good of penetration.

Bottom line is:
1100FPS velocity is ideal for game upto caribou sized game with 250-300gr
1200FPS with 300-325gr+ i good for anything up  to elk
1300FPS with 350-425gr is good for anything that walks.

454 is more versatile in that is can shoot medium to heavy bullets at modest to high velocity. The 475 is really suited to only heavier bullets, so velocity has to be dialed down to reduce power and recoil, which leaves less versatility for lower power rounds.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Actually, according to an article I have here by Ross Seyfried in the May 1988 issue of Guns and Ammo, Linebaugh developed the .475 because the .500 was just a little short on case capacity in relation to bore diameter. They [Seyfried and Linebaugh] were experimenting with the various bullet weights and felt they were pushing the .500 too hard to get the velocities they were looking for.
You have to remember that the chamber walls on any .475 are thicker than those on a .500, and as such allow the .475 to work at 50,000 PSI safely, whereas the .500 is safe up to 35,000 PSI while still keeping the 100% safety margin that Linebaugh seeks in his guns.
By going to .475 they were able to increase pressures to 50,000 PSI and still be able to launch the same weight bullets at equal or even higher velocity.
I know that I got a little off topic, but I see statements on this forum about the .500 being able to out-do the .475. That's only true when running the .500 way above where it was designed to be run, according to the man who invented it. [linebaugh, not Seyfried]

[FAStevo]

Actually, the 475 was created when Linebaugh was told by a Winchester employee that 348 brass (on which, the 500  linebaugh is based), was going to be discontinued. John will tell you that the 475 was created to keep him in business, he needed  a cartridge, that brass would be available for.... Those are Linebaugh's own words, not only told to me but, I believe, later put in print. I just wanted to lay to rest the misconception, that the 475 was created to cover up some inadequacy, that the 500 Linebaugh had. The fact that the 475 would penetrate better with roughly the same weight/designed bullets was "discovered" later. To me the 500 Linebaugh offers the same "advantages" over the 475 Linebaugh, that the 45 Colt offers over the 44 Mag; less pressure, equals less muzzle blast..... That's why I own a 500 Linebaugh!lol Regards, Steve

[Lloyd Smale]

correct. If it wasnt for johns fear of running out of 348 brass the 475 would probably never have been made. Its a great round. Probably the most versitile big bore. I dont think it shines over the 500 on the top end as I can easily push 450s to 1300fps with brass falling out on its own. try it with a 475 and ill guarantee your pounding out brass. Where the 475 shines is with reduced loads. Its is much easier to find good reduced loads for then the 500. No doubt john has the 500 idleing and thats why alot of people have the misconception that it is a weeker round then the 475. Bottom line is it will push the same weight bullet at the same speed and do it with much less pressure and much better brass life. Ive got 500 brass thats seen 30 loadings and is still going strong. 475 brass usually gives up the ghost between 10 and 15 loadings.

Actually, the 475 was created when Linebaugh was told by a Winchester employee that 348 brass (on which, the 500  linebaugh is based), was going to be discontinued. John will tell you that the 475 was created to keep him in business, he needed  a cartridge, that brass would be available for.... Those are Linebaugh's own words, not only told to me but, I believe, later put in print. I just wanted to lay to rest the misconception, that the 475 was created to cover up some inadequacy, that the 500 Linebaugh had. The fact that the 475 would penetrate better with roughly the same weight/designed bullets was "discovered" later. To me the 500 Linebaugh offers the same "advantages" over the 475 Linebaugh, that the 45 Colt offers over the 44 Mag; less pressure, equals less muzzle blast..... That's why I own a 500 Linebaugh!lol Regards, Steve

[jphendren]

So it appears that no one argues that the .454 Casull produces more energy, but that the .475 still kills better due to its increased bullet weight/diameter.

Jared

[nathan]

I'm not sure why this is even a question.  Once you get to that level of power (ie. 454/475), a few ft/lbs or fps don't really mean much.  Both will kill anything w/ the right bullet and placement....pick which one you want to use and enjoy it, end of story. 

[MS Hitman]

Jared,

Like Ken said; just put the energy figures out of your head.  Those numbers are a tool for the uninformed and misunderstanding crowds to use; mainly the fish and game departments across the country.

[Sweetwater]

I thought those numbers were published to give us something to talk about during nasty weather! LOL!

I have to agree with above; pick your weapon/cartridge, learn it, use it, and enjoy it. They will all do more than we can imagine, and generate more than necessary recoil for those who thrive on recoil.

Next?

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry ken theres only one of him

Twins ? Hey, that means I'd need an Elmer !

[Graybeard]

Hello,

I keep reading all over the net that the .475 Linebaugh is more powerful than the .454 Casull.  I'm not trying to start an argument, but I cannot find any .475 loadings that generate more kinetic energy than some of the various .454 Casull loadings.

Energy, smenergy ya need to get that silly idea out of your head it's only paper energy and is only good for killing paper animals.

The .475 is the same length as the .454 Casull, has a larger diameter and uses heavier bullets. What more do you need to know that it's more powerful?

[Lee Robinson]

The velocity plays a roll in power. Of course you know that though. That being said...more powerful or not, if I was going to buy a gun with either of these fine cartriges, I would rather have the 475...but here in MS chasing whitetail deer I don't need anything bigger than the 45 colt.

[jphendren]

The .475 is the same length as the .454 Casull, has a larger diameter and uses heavier bullets. What more do you need to know that it's more powerful?

The same could be said about the .45 Colt vs. .44 Magnum debate.  The reason that the .44 Magnum is more powerful than the .45 Colt is velocity.  So in my mind, velocity is not an unimportant part of "Power."

Jared

[Lloyd Smale]

well i dont beleive much in ft lbs of energy i do realize like lee said velocity is imprortant. Energy figures are a measurement of how much energy is transmitted to an animal. Aint much if the bullet blows through and into the ground like a good handgun bullet will. I like the old test to show how little energy really does. Hang a 100 lb back of corn or rock salt off a pole. Shoot it with a 340 weatherby and see how litte you actually make that bag move. What you need velocity for is to insure at the distance your shooting you have a useable trajectory and that your bullet has enough momentum when it arrives to break bone and still penetrate to the vitals and preferably enough to do that and make it out the off side. A little more doesnt hurt as it makes a tad bigger wound channel but you cant prove by me that that means an animal is going to run more then a leap or two farther. To much velocity in a handgun can be detrimental. Push a cast bullet to fast and it deforms. If it deforms it will not penetrate nearly as well. Thats why a bullet going 1100 fps will many times outpenetrate one going 1500 fps. Dont think that can happen? we shot a 1000lb cow buffalo 4 times one day using 420 grain cast hollow points i made at about 1400 fps. Now youd think that a bullet that heavy would penetrate no matter what happened to it. Well the farthest one went was about 8 inches and the buffalo was put down by another buddy who poked it one time with a normal 440 at 1100 fps. bullet broke both shoulder and dropped it where it stood. A good example of what pushing jacketed bullets fast can net you even out of a big gun. Should have been a few ft lbs of energy shaking up that animal but for the first two shots it kept walking like it wasnt even hit.

[STJ]

The same could be said about the .45 Colt vs. .44 Magnum debate.  The reason that the .44 Magnum is more powerful than the .45 Colt is velocity.  So in my mind, velocity is not an unimportant part of "Power."

Jared

The 44mag is NOT more powerful than the 45colt...most 45colt rounds aren't loaded anywhere near what they can be so they don't blow up a SAA...If both rounds are used in a Ruger, the 45 will beat the 44mag in KE and TKO values...

[MS Hitman]

Jared,

You need to get that out of your mind and listen to what these old boys are telling you.  That kinetic energy is only useful for selling 'bigger and better" more powerful rounds to the neophytes who haven't learned better; and by the most game & fish departments who aren't interested in learning any better.  Bullet weight and caliber are the two variables which do not diminish over time and distance once a bullet is launched from a revolver.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you stick to publised data from the powder manufactures most ruger level 45 colt loads are still below a 44 mag. Sure you can run it hotter yet but i dont think your going to find a powder or gun manufacture that indorses doing it. Also the 44 mag to some extent is the same. Put it in a FA or even a redhawk and you can approach 454 ballistics. Does that make it as powerful as a 454? Not in my books. In all reality there isnt enough differnce in the two to even discuss it.

The same could be said about the .45 Colt vs. .44 Magnum debate.  The reason that the .44 Magnum is more powerful than the .45 Colt is velocity.  So in my mind, velocity is not an unimportant part of "Power."

Jared

The 44mag is NOT more powerful than the 45colt...most 45colt rounds aren't loaded anywhere near what they can be so they don't blow up a SAA...If both rounds are used in a Ruger, the 45 will beat the 44mag in KE and TKO values...