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Author Topic: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?  (Read 2813 times)

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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2008, 03:04:17 PM »
Quote from: Ron Byers on November 13, 2008, 08:41:32 AM
I have no idea why ammunition prices are rising faster than inflation.  I do know WalMart prices are still pretty reasonable.  I also know reloaded bullets are significantly cheaper than store bought. Reloading can be fun and it leads to some of the most interesting discussions.  See the threads below.  ;D


It is real simple price spike is due to the panic buying the election has triggered. When everything i put out sells the next batch is priced higher.
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Offline Ponydog

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2008, 03:42:47 PM »
MOst of the issue is what I would call the "band wagon syndrome".......other industries that have sucessfully "faked" dedmand and shortages.....like OIL.....can just use the old pat answer, supply and demand...that is rubbish.......do you think ANYONE  is stupid enough to think that slowing worldwide demand has driven oil down 100 dollars a barrel?  or 110??  Let me clue you in, there was NEVER a demand issue.....
there is a refining issue, ...plenty of oil...PLENTY...just not enough refineries...(THAT IS NOT SUPPLY AND DEMAND, that is manipulation ) .so, the firearms / ammo manufacterers say , hey,
everything is up, great time to add two bucks across the board to whatever caliber we want...,,,now
.223 is a military round, that I can see...but nothing else......nothing.  Are we really naive enough to believe an Ammunition manufacturer is gonna rely on the open market for metal pricing to rise/fall.   They own their own sources for metal that make their products.....these are not mom and pops , these are huge conglomerates.....I will give you a for instance as well, three years ago, regulkar dove load, for a case...at Wal MArt...was about 33 bucks....last year it went to 43..this year it was at almost 50 bucks a case, for 12 ga 1 once 8 shot generic Remington dove loads...that is crap......and someday, when we all do have to stop, and THESE industries also shut the doors....they can look in the mirror , if they wanna find someone to blame...
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Offline Explorer1

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 05:17:14 PM »
"THAT IS NOT SUPPLY AND DEMAND, that is manipulation"

We are going to disagree.  No matter what the cause of the supply limitation, this is a factor in supply and demand.  It is ONLY manipulation if something is ARTIFICALLY restricting supply, like volutarily shutting down a refinery.  We have not built a refinery in the US in 3 decades, WE are limiting our fuel supply!

The same exists for ammo today.  Demand is HIGH due to concerns about the incoming Marxist (IMHO) administration which will have a strong socialist (IMHO) Congress which can be expected to support him (i.e. screw us working folks).  Demand is high because people want it NOW and the supply is limited - given the war and all.  If someone was restricting production, then it would be manipulation.  The only manipulation in ammo today IMHO is the fear of the new incoming potential dictator.  ObamaOne and BozoBiden have told us what restrictions they want to impose, we are concerned they might actually get some of them.  That's a supply and demand market.

Whether we agree on the cause or not, demand is high, prices are up, and supplies are low.  We saw the magazine prices swing with the last fraud known as the assault weapons ban, it is repeating on a larger scale.  Primers and powder have been short for months locally, some bullets have not been pleantiful....

The latest schemes include gun registration, lead bans, ammo taxes up to 500%, and even serial numbering bullets.  Some are setting back watching and even laughing, others are playing in the market.  Just like other commodities, you make your choices and reap your rewards (or take your losses).  Its called life.
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Offline Ponydog

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2008, 08:28:46 PM »
Well if you don't think that OPEC threats of cutting supply, and Chavez talking the same in Venezuela is
"artificially" restricting supply.....then you need to educate me on this a bit..there is no shortage of oil....not by anyones scientific analysis...never has been , never will be in our lifetime....what there is , is maniupulation to extract that oil...and that isn't natural , that is artificial ....and by the way ////look who owns American refineries.....they are not owned by independent companies...they are owned BY the Oil companies.....I am not gonna say that isn't life, sure I understand......but when tankers are sitting for weeks and weeks on end, waiting to dump their crude, and when our country imports GAS...to meet demand, not oil....then we have a manipulated refinery issue...plenty of oil, no refining capacity.  Everyone knows it, admits it, and yet....nothing is done....and you are correct...30 years later...and NOTHING  has been done...I supose someone will blame that on the BUSH administration too....
I still say , take everyone on the face of the USA...312 million people.....give them all 1 million after taxes...on the idea, and the restriction, that they FIRST pay all their debts.....that plan , only costs the Government about 500 million...( plus they get an average of 29% back in taxes before it ever starts...)

Then , all mortgages would be caught up, all car payments made, boats paid for, all regular debts paid in full...insurance is now affordable for all, and most folks would have money for kids college, food, health care, etc etc....sounds better than a 700 BILLION dollar bailout for bankers and lawyers to split , and think of the stimulus that would create.....
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2008, 09:24:56 PM »
312 million people X $1 million each = $312,000,000,000,000. If a million is 1 followed by 6 zeros and a billion is 1 followed by 9 zeros what is 1 followed by 12 zeros? 
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Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2008, 12:10:47 PM »
Probably more money than is available in the world today, all currencies combined?
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2008, 12:58:43 PM »
Well raw materials such as steel went up as well as other prices like copper, zinc, lead, tin, and aluminium.
The fuel costs added to the cost of materials in oth directions.
I worked for a boiler company until two months ago and saw our material costs go up and the cost to ship things in increase as well as delivery costs all adding to our over all costs.
if we were paying 100 for materials to make the boiler and adding 40% profit to cover the overhead, taxes, and labor  for a sale price of 166.67 when the materials went up by 20% our sale price went up my more than that to cover additional taxes and such to a sell price of $200. 
Same with the fuel prices  yes they made record profits but only make 3% off of a gallon of gas but you sell that much gas and the more the raw materials cost the more you will make to the point other find substitution goods or demand will drop for that good.
The better question to ask is if the gas companies made record profits at 3% and the state of CA and the Feds are getting 17% of the sale price of a gallon of gas why are people mad at the gas companies and not mad at the governments who are making huge win falls on items they do not produce.  In the case of firearms and ammo there are federal sin taxes built in that you are then charged sales tax on top of that, same goes for tabaco, alcohol, and automoiles.  heck if there were not 10K in the cost of a suburban in taxes I would e able to afford to drive one.
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2008, 03:10:46 PM »
I saw something that scared the hell of me.  I saw a chart showing that global shipping rates have dropped off the table. Ships are being tied up at docks all over the place. Nothing to move. This recession is really, really big and it is world wide.
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Offline Ponydog

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2008, 04:23:26 AM »
I am afraid you folks actually think that money MEANS something.....glad to see you can do the math .....but if you actually think money is a commodity that is backed up by reality .....
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2008, 07:27:15 AM »
Actually I think I know where you are coming from. You are pushing all that Ron Paul gold standard stuff right?

If you think money is simply an illusion I don't see how you would be hurt if  you send me all of yours.   ;D
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Offline Ponydog

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2008, 05:48:00 PM »
My point is , money, whether it be billions or trillions....dosen't seem to scare anyone...not when it seems so easy to bail out an industry , or another country , or whatever........just print more, and run it into the system,

kinda like Lays pototo chips..........we'll make more....
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2008, 10:10:27 PM »
When you print enough you end up with run away inflation.  The fear right now, however, is run away deflation.
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2008, 07:18:31 AM »
 
  Ron,  you wrote:  " If a million is 1 followed by 6 zeros and a billion is 1 followed by 9 zeros what is 1 followed by 12 zeros? "

     Um, Ron old buddy, . . . its called a Trillion.  :-)

     And, I haven't checked lately, but I think our national debt is way more than this.

Mannyrock

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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2008, 07:32:31 AM »
I know it is a trillion, and I know our national debt is about 11 trillion.  The proposal was for the government to pay all 312 million Americans one million each, or 312 trillion dollars.  A lot of talk radio talking heads have made similar proposals.  Apparently none of them can do the math.   
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2008, 11:07:39 AM »
The debt of the country really does not matter as we owe it to our selves and as long as the service of the debt is less than 12% of our total national income(the amount we are taxed and the fees and what ever else they want to call it)  we are OK.  What gets me going is Congress that placed the regulations and the unions that demand so much are now mad that they have killed the golden goose and want to hear the CEO's appoligise for running the companies into being insolvent.  Now do not take what I said as anti labor.  Unions were a good thing 50 years ago when the union was looking out for the worker.  Now the union is looking out for it's self.  The UPS strike 12 years ago is proof of that.  The whole strike was so the Union could get hold of the Billion $ pension fund UPS had for it's drivers.  When UPS was incharge it grew by a full amount.  The union now take 20% of the profit of the billion dollars to manage the fund for the drivers.
The politicians double tax corperate profits and more profits are needed to give solid returns.  And as Taxes are a cost all added taxes do is add more to prices.  Not to mention that we are taxed on top of taxes that we should not.  Your sales tax is based on the sale price of the car but that car has up to 9 grand of gas guzzler tax as part of the price.  We need to have someone restructure taxes so I am not working for 5 months or more out of the month to pay off the Federal, state, local, and all the fees, sales, and fines that are in everything else I buy or services I have.
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Offline oldelkhunter

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2008, 03:46:36 AM »
Folks we have a declining audience so Manufacturers are targeting certain groups of people for their particular types of hunting,tastes and economic clout  and that destroys economy of scale. We have way too many choices in ammunition and firearms plus external pressure from China and our own department of defense that is competing with us. When I was growning up there was a Model 700, Model 70, Savage 110 and marlin and winchester levers that were sold on a large scale. 30-30,35 rem, 30-06 and 270 and the occasional 7 Rem mag were sold. Contrast that with what is out there today and it is mind boggling. There are more muzzleloader selections out there today then modern centerfire rifles 40 years ago. It won't get better. :) Someone give me all the TV money TC spends and I would be one happy camper. Simply ridiculous and their prices reflect it
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:23 AM »
capitalism seems be failing..what then .. um
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Offline no guns here

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Re: Can we continue to afford hunting and new guns and ammo?
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2008, 07:50:25 AM »
Wow... this is something I can talk to I think.

for the record - my family only has one significant income.  My wife only makes about $600 a month at her part time job.  I'm and E7 in the Air Force.  We have four kids.  Are we rich? No.  Do we have a lot of disposable income?  No.  Do I still get a new gun every year?  Pretty much every year I get one or two. 

Problem is, we live in Germany.  Getting ammo can be expensive.  My .376 Steyr runs 80Euro a box.  Right now that's about $100 a box.  Needless to say I don't shoot it much.  It came with 99 rounds.  I still have 80 left.  The gun is for sale now to finance a couple others.

My .308 is much better.  I can get Federal ammo at the rod and gun club for $22 a box.

My wife knows that I have no other vices than guns and hunting.  I don't drink, smoke, party or go out on the town.  I'm faithful and provide fairly well for my family.  No they don't get all they want but they get all they need and and most of what they want.  She doesn't have too much problem with me spending 5-600 on a new gun every year.  We save all our extra coins all year and that covers about $300 a year of my cost.  I look for good deals and spend wisely.  If I can do it anyone can.  Unfortuneately I can't afford a new Blaser R93 but in the past three years I bought a Marlin 1895 CB .45-70, a Steyr Pro Hunt .376, a Tikka T3 .308, a Colt King Cobra and a S&W Performance Center .357.  My daughter bought a Beretta 686 Onyx.  The only one I paid retail for was the Marlin.  The rest were WELL below market.
     Hunting is expensive here but there are ways to go pretty much for free.  There are "abschuss" hunts which are basically cull hunts.  There are "treibjagds" which are usually more of a social hunt but are pretty much free except for a night or so in a gasthaus and the dinner afterwards.  If you want a red stag, even a decent class 2B will run you about 1500Euro.  Mouflon will be the same.  A big boar can run upwards of 500Euro.  I've seen marmot hunts go for 300Euro with two marmots on the ticket!  If you want to shoot fox, most of the time that is free and people will invite you to do that.  If you do well that can lead to invitations back for other game.  Where I hunt, you have to be careful with the pigs, boars are expensive but yearlings and piglets are free unless you want to buy the meat.  I bought the meat of one reh (roe) deer and one pig.  I usually just go for the hunt.

Handloading would help me here, but I have to get a license.  Almost impossible to get the class and the test in English more than once a year.  So far, both times that I've known about have been during big exercises and I couldn't go if I wanted to.

Anyway, yes, hunting is expensive for us "gun guys".  For the one 'ol boy who deer and pig hunts on public or private land and who has one rifle and a shotgun, it's still pretty inexpensive.  I don't even TRY to justify the expense.  It's just what I do and what I like to do.  I just saw an elk hunt in Colorado listed at $23,000.  Try to justify that in any way, shape or form...  That's just folks profiteering off of public animals that live on their land.


Gotta go,
ngh
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