Author Topic: Bullet Tips (Read 3024 times)

MIBullets · « **on:** November 02, 2008, 07:30:40 AM »

I was reading some of the older posts and saw some about bullets tips. I think they were made with 22 rimfire cases. I have thought about doing this myself before but wasn't sure if it would work. Can anyone out there tell me if they have tried doing this with rimfire cases or anything else?

I think it was Rick Teal talking about some in one of the posts.

talon · « **Reply #1 on:** November 02, 2008, 12:52:03 PM »

Some folks use the term 'bullet tips' to mean bullets. That's because lots of people call cartridges "bullets". As to your question: yes. making .224 bullet jackets out of spent .22 rim fire cases is doable, and many have been doing this for well over half a century. After you make the jacket, you will need several more dies to stuff lead into the empty jacket and then put a point on it (the point could be called a "tip", I suppose, but most swagers call it the ogive). If you need more details, just ask. Others on this board can expand on this subject quite well.

MIBullets · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2008, 02:11:55 PM »

I actually mean using the rimfire case for the very tip of a much larger bullet. For example, I would like to use a rimfire case or something else to put in the very tip of my 35 caliber bullets. This would be something similar to a Nosler Ballistic Tip with a plastic tip.

talon · « **Reply #3 on:** November 03, 2008, 03:51:29 PM »

I believe a bullet could be made to achieve your purpose without the use of .22rf cases for tips. Just make an 'Open Tip' bullet with a core that only comes up to within 3/8th"( aprox) of the tip of the jacket when the ogive has been swaged. If you want a thicker jacket base wall than the nose area, just use a JRD to reduce shorter jackets that would exactly fit into the main jackets. I tend to think that this would be a more economical method than to have several tip forming dies( for the .22rf part) and at least one special nose preparation die ( for the .35cal jacket) made to allow the .22rf case to seat properly.

MIBullets · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2008, 04:09:47 PM »

I think it all depends on what the purpose of the tip is. In my case I would like it to speed up the initial expansion then allow the heavier main jacket and bonded core to slow the expansion. If I understand your reply, you are suggesting something more like a partition bullet where the base of the inner jacket would act somewhat like a partition protecting the rear core. Is that correct?

talon · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2008, 08:29:55 AM »

No, the internal jacket's heal would sit on the outer jacket's heal. The internal cored jacket would most probably be dumped in the first millisecond of contact with the animal, and it having a much wider mouth than the outer jacket, would give quite an explosive effect. I have tried this method myself as simple bonded cores suit me quite well with bear and deer.

iiranger · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2008, 07:42:20 AM »

Amazing how much history is "lost." During/following WW II, Mr. Huntington set up to make a bullet swage die sets to make bullets for varmints out of rimfire cases. Uncle Sam was hoggin all the bullets! He called his operation Rock Chucker Bullet Swage. You are probably more familar with the initials. RCBS. Big Green? Needed a press to apply the force. The Rockchucker. He sold out long ago, but the company travels on...

Two men, same time, got into the bullet business in Lincoln Nebraska making bullets from rimfire cases for shooters. You may recognize their names. Joyce Hornady. Vern Speer. Shortly they parted ways and Mr. H moved down the road to Grand Island Ne where the business remains under the leadership of his son. Wife is mayor of the town. He died in a plane crash. 1990? Mr. Speer moved farther west. I believe his son is active in the business. Idaho?

Then there was Mr. Sisk of Iowa Park Tx. Yes, this is common and information is widely available. Mr. Harvey Donaldson, of the .219 Donaldson Wasp fame, benchrest shooting, also wrote of making his own bullets with rimfire cases in dies he made himself. He was a machinist.

The big source, prolific writer, in the field today is Mr. Dave Corbin. Corbins.com. Swage.com. On his web site he has posted a book [Rediscover Swaging #9???] without pictures and in there is a chapter or two on making bullets with rimfire cases. Read it free? Download? Buy the book? (Or fired shotgun primers. Or fired brass cases...) Along with dozens of other publications on topics in this field. Of course he makes, sells die sets (he hopes, no doubt) with which you will do this. He has a brother and they don't agree completely... Richard is at rceco.com ... Mr. Blackmon also makes die sets for this. I believe Sports Flite is out of business. oh well. No telling what Hollywood Engineering is doing. ch4d.com has die sets more for pistol bullets. You search about a bit and you can find what you need. LUCK. Happy trails.

MIBullets · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2008, 12:14:47 PM »

Man, I must not be explaining this topic very well. I appreciate the help, but I already make 22 bullets from rimfire cases. I just want someone to explain to me how to make a tip something like a nosler ballistic tip for a 35 caliber bullet. I only sugested using the rimfire case because I saw Rick Teal metion it in a older post. I am open to using something else as well.

talon · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2008, 01:02:49 PM »

Your 3 Nov comment cleared the air for me. All I can mention at this point is that after reading everything I could get my hands on about bullet swaging these last 14 years, I've never found anything about making bullet tips from .22rfs or anything else, at the hobby level, except perhaps using those nylon "bullet balls". Usually .22rf cases, and other small jackets, while placed in the main jacket, never were meant to become exposed at the tip of the bullet. And they were always filled with a lead core. ( I have several sets of speciality dies that punch small pin holes in the heal of small jackets so that they can be used to "core bond in place" in making 'H-mantle' bullets. The small holes let air escape during the heating process so that the internal jacket wouldn't pop out of the larger jacket) I do remember seeing a cross section of a large African type bullet having a 1E type ogive hollow steel shell as a tip, by it looked to me that the tip was compressed on the body of the bullet after the body was completed. I've also seen where two half jackets, one made to just fit into the other, were placed at each of of a lead core and swaged to form a FMJ bullet. ((I wonder where Rick is. I'd also like to find out his success with this method we're speaking of ?))

pdog2225 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2008, 07:23:24 PM »

Corbins sell "bullet balls" of different sizes and colors to put in the nose of swaged bullets to form tips.

There is also an old story about larger caliber bullets that have been made with a cavity or hole drilled into the nose and a .22 blank is inserted. These would probably be the type used in construction nail guns and can be bought in different power levels. They are supposed to explode on impact opening up the bullet more. As I recall what I read on them was that they weren't any more effective than regular bullets. Maybe someone else will remember more about these bullets. pdog2225

MIBullets · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2008, 04:31:02 AM »

Yes, I have tried the bullet balls too. They work Ok but are quite blunt, Ok if you want a round nosed bullet. I also am not sure about difference in the terminal performance though.

Last night I just tried it. I seated a regular core in my tubing jacket that left a space in the upper portion of the jacket. I then pushed the bullet into the point forming die far enough so I could put a empty (no core)22 rimfire jacket made from a 22 short case upside down into the hole in the 35 caliber jacket nose. I then ran it all back into the point forming die to get the desired shape on the rimfire jacket tip and the rest of the bullet. I works, a least it looks good on the outside. I don't know how the rimfire jacket deforms under pressure inside the 35 caliber part. If I can I will post a picture. It looks similar to a Reminton Bronze Point.

I am hoping that this will give good expansion since the tip should colapse on impact and leave a large hole in the remaining tubing jacket, but also keep a good ballistic coefficient.

iiranger · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2008, 10:37:17 AM »

the question...

In his book(s), Mr. Dave Corbin much pushes the "bullet balls" pieces of plastic he sells. I gather his die sets can form them into sharper points as needed. The edition I was reading just before the "balls" came out, he mentioned using the rubber plug material that is used to seal holes in tubeless tires, I think. Many things have been tried to support expansion. Filling a hollow point with bees wax was ancient. I was a little surprised, quite young, when first I read of Mr. Hoxey's efforts in Gun Digest. He bought factory ammo, drilled a hole in the round nose, inserted a steel ball bearing, crimped it I guess, and resold the factory ammo with his label on the factory box... I believe current federal anti crime law would prohibit a steel ball. At the same time, copper wire or tubing, same basic material as the jacket, should form without too much added trouble, just another step. luck.

MIBullets · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2008, 01:45:07 PM »

I've read in Corbin's literature that the bullet balls can not be formed into a sharp tip, they will try to go back to their original shap to some degree. I have tried and he is right.

OK, here is a picture of my bullet. Sorry about the quality but all I have is a camera phone to take them.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2008, 02:05:34 PM »

Shooting Times magazine had an issue this past summer that included a major article about making your own .223 bullets from spent 22 rimfire brass. If I come across the issue month and date ( and issue number) I'll post it here for you.

Dave

MIBullets · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2008, 02:32:08 PM »

Sorry, let me try this again.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2008, 04:24:33 AM »

The article was in the Shooting Times http://www.shootingtimes.com/ November 2007 issue. The article on making your own .223 bullets was pretty indepth and went thru the process from what were the "best" type of rimfired cases to use, the size of lead wire to use for the core, and what equipment was needed to make it all happen.

You can order a back issue (this issue) if you go to the web site. It looks like a lot of work to me.....I'll stick to Noslers.

Just an FYI.

Dave

talon · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2008, 04:44:54 AM »

MI, those bullets look good. Can you tell yet how well 'locked' the tip is in the jacket, and how the core swaged into/around the tip's 'base'?

MIBullets · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2008, 04:53:33 AM »

talon, I have not sectioned the bullet yet to see how or what happened inside. The tips are however held quite tight. I believe that the 22 case is crimped into the larger jacket similar to crimping a revolver case on the bullet when reloading. I can't move it and it never moved after being tumble polished for 24 hr.

talon · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2008, 12:36:43 PM »

MI, That's great. I haven't heard of anyone else, except perhaps Rick, doing this before. The final "test", of course, is to see how your tip aids in a quick kill on a Whitetail size animal.

MIBullets · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:49:03 PM »

Exactly what I intend to do with it talon. Thanks for the comments!

Rick Teal · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2008, 05:55:38 AM »

Why do people always want to talk to me when I'm away hunting?

I don't recall the post you're referring to, but at one time I considered making flat tipped bullets using inverted .22 rimfire cases as tips, but so far I haven't pursued that idea.

What I do is make hollow tips from inverted bullet jackets. I start with .22 calibre jackets, reduce them to .20, then through a two stage process, form a .20 tip with a .17 shank that I insert into the bullet during the point forming process. I use a small secondary core to hold the tip in place and help in retarding expansion. I find the combination of features causes an initial shock and a degree of expansion that usually puts the animal right down, then the tip remnant and secondary core retard the expansion to guarantee penetration. When the tip remnant is eventually torn away (probably in microseconds) natural expansion continues.

Tests in wet phone books have indicated to me that bonded core versions of this bullet aren't significantly better than regular cored versions - though further testing is probably advisable on this. I still carry bonded bullets in my Whelen for moose hunts and standard cores in my .358 for deer.

I have yet to recover a bullet from a deer (haven't managed to connect on a moose with them yet), and in all but two cases I've had bang/flop results. In the other cases the running deer were dead on their feet and went only a few yards.

I have yet to come up with an acceptable flat tip design to use in my .356.

I'll now try to post a couple of pictures of my bullets.

The next is a cross section that has undergone some minor adjustments since the picture was taken. I also believe I can adjust expansion characteristics by varying the relative heights of the lead in the main bullet and the tip (the lower the level of the lead in the tip, the greater the expansion).

MIBullets · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2008, 01:55:51 PM »

Thanks for the reply Rick! Those bullets look nice. A couple of questions though. How do you form the tip before inserting it? Also, I don't fully understand the secondary core part. I can't see it in the sectioned bullet. Can you explain it a little more.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:05:47 AM »

Rick,

PM sent

Rick Teal · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2008, 06:54:01 PM »

MI bullets:

Sorry I haven't replied before, but I've been visiting family for the last few days.

I bought tooling from Corbin to make the tips. Its my guess they could probably be made on a punch press, but my stuff is designed to work on a Series II press and is a little on the fragile side requiring a great deal of care to keep parts from breaking. Essentially I force the open end of the tip into one of two .104 dies which take it from a jacket through two stages into the shape you see in the picture. I anneal before using these dies.

When I seat my cores, I use a seating punch that creates a .17 calibre hole in the centre of the core. When I insert the tip I put a .104 core in the open end of the tip. During the point forming process, this core travels further into the tip, and part of it fills any additional space at the bottom of the tip. This minor core works against the inward pressure from the point former to lock the tip in place. In the picture, the lead you see that's inside the bottom of the tip is the result of what the point former does to the minor core.