misfires from handloads Lee Enfield and CZ 527M

[bluebayou]

Ballpark it is 35 degrees here. 

I have an Ishapore Enfield and a CZ carbine that both had multiple misfires today.  I ended up cancelling my range plans as the misfires were maybe 50%.

The Enfield has been thoroughly cleaned except the bolt assembly.  The Enfield cocking piece was not traveling forward all of the way.  There was visible oil/grease on the cocking piece.  I am thinking that it got stiff from cold and needs to be disassembled or soaked.

The CZ misfired on 50% of its handloads also.  WTC?

They are all CCI Large primers, but from 3 different batches.  The CZ 7.62x39 handloads are from 2 years ago.  The 308 Enfield loads are recent......but I think that the cocking piece and bolt are the issue.....

Is this just a coincidence?  Does the CZ have a history of light strikes?

The primers on the CZ misfires show distinct, but light hits.  The CZ fired Russian Golden Bear flawlessly, with normal primer strikes. 

[R.W.Dale]

 I had the exact same intermittent handload misfire issue with my CZ 7.62x39mm and another so chambered bolt gun. Mostly the issues would happen with cci's as you've noted.

 ANYHOW! I only discovered the cause after a gentleman made me a cartridge gauge. What was happening was if FL resized my Lyman dies would push the shoulder back between .010 to .015" too far thus causing my misfire issues. Apparently theres some difference in 7.62x39mm chamber dimensions between SAAMI and CIP with the latter being slightly deeper. The solution was simply setting up my sizing die so resized cases would sit flush with the mouth of my case gauge.

 I've since purchased a Lee 7.62x39 collet die that's the bees knees for 7.62x39 bolt gun reloading eliminating all these issues

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=168561

[Steve P]

Military service rifles are "field" gage.  They are not made to SAAMI specs.  Like the above post mentions, you may be "over sizing" your cases.  My dies just kiss the shoulder on my military guns.  One the guns where I have several in the same caliber (7.62x54r, 8x56r, .303, etc) I have to adjust the dies every time I load for one gun.  I also have to mark my ammo so it fits just the one gun.  You can set your dies to "universally" size your ammo so you can shoot it in any of a specific caliber, but your brass just doesn't last as many reloadings.

Another thing to consider is most of these military rifles have come from storage.  Most were gooped with cosmoline or similar preservatives prior to going into storage.  At 35 degrees, cosmoline is about the consistency of a hard stick butter.  You can cut it with a knife, but it tears the bread when you try to spread it.  I have heard of several methods to cleaning the bolts (boiling in water, setting in a pan in toaster oven, etc) but what worked for me on most of my surplus guns was to put the bolts on a shop rag and run my handy dandy heat gun over the bolt assembly for a couple of minutes.  (hair dryer should work also, but slower.)  Cosmoline turns runny like melted butter and runs out.  Simple bolt disassembly and wipe down and you are complete.  No more goo slowing the firing pin.

If you find out the problem is oversized brass, load up about 10 grains of Unique and an unsized cast bullet that sticks into the rifling.  This should hold your brass in place and let you fireform it to fit the chamber.  This is practice I use when making Jap brass from -06 or similar.  My 30 Bower Alaskan takes 12 grains of Unique, but that is 444 marlin brass necked down and is a little stiffer to form a shoulder.

Good luck and I hope you find the remedy so you can get that ammo to blast.  Sounds like coyote weather and those irons should drop one in it's tracks.

Steve

[bluebayou]

Funny that you mention coyotes.  The FIL and I were thinking about calling some on the deer lease next week.  I have never done it and think that it would be a hoot.  My father in law wants to do it from a stand....

Okay,
I think that the Enfield problem is the exact opposite of the CZ theory that Krochus mentioned.  I measured the new Enfield handloads and they are 1.572 to the shoulder.  The dummy rounds that I have prepared are 1.562.  The manual that I am looking at says 1.560.  The bolt doesn't close completely on the 1.572 rounds. 

I had previously full length sized, but tried partial-sizing or neck-sizing with my full length 308 dies with this batch.  I figured that with the Ishapore's potentially large chamber, that the less working of the brass the better.

STUPID 7.62X39 DIES.  When I first got these dies I was hacked off because Lee shipped them with .308 expander instead of .311.  Granted, Lee sold me a .311 for $1.50....but it was frustrating. 

20 bucks says that you are right, Krochus.  I bet that one is sized too small and one needs to be bumped back.......Dang <I would use more colorful language, but it's a family place and all>

[cwlongshot]

  The first thing I though of was too much grease/lube on the firing pin and its spring. Clean it good with kerosene/diesel or other good solvent and blow it dry. I prefer minimal lube, but if you must lube, use a synthetic that works over a greater range of temps.
 
The head space problem is a very good catch. Have you fired any to check the case for a ring just above the web? If you cannot see it, possible you could feel it with a bent wire inserted into the neck.
 Anyhow, in reading your posts I think you are on to it as you say you "tried" neck sizing. Do you know if you set up the dies properly? (NO OFFENCE, But Do you know how to?) IE did you smoke neck/shoulder of the cases, so as you re-sized you could be sure the shoulder wasn't being moved? Even so its not true neck sizing, but it can help accuracy and case life.

 I am not a fan of LEE products as a rule. But one thing that they make that I do like is there collet neck sizing dies. If your going to continue neck sizing, I recomend them. I don't have them for all calibers, but I do have them for my most accurate calibers. 

 Good luck and let us know what you find.

CW

[bluebayou]

My 308 dies are RCBS, but, no, I don't think that I am neck-sizing correctly.  I read a previous post from you explaining how to do it.  I couldn't get the neck to size.  I went through 4-5 pieces of brass.  I kept ending up with necks with work marks half way or I went too far and was bumping the shoulders.  My theory was to resize enough to chamber the brass in the rifle.  Apparently I miscalculated.  All of these are too big.  It is all Federal brass that has been fired 3 times........so I am not sweating the cost of the brass. 

I don't dig on depriming live primers even if they are soaked with WD40 or something.  The Federal brass is getting binned. 

The 7.62x39 brass is another story.  I don't want to pull down those loads.  I guess that they will be dedicated to the SKS (the rifle that I made them for 2 years ago).

[mountainview]

What loads were you shooting? I have had the same problem with some of my handloads. Mainly it involved rounds using the starting load for a couple particular powders in my 8x57 Yugo.

[bluebayou]

The 7.62x39 loads were 27 or 28 grains of H4895, so they were pretty full. 

The 308 loads were light.  36.5 and 38.5 grains of H4895.  They are youth loads, basically.  I am trying to find the cheapest, reasonably accurate loads for this 308 Enfield.  The rifle is fantastic to handle and good looking.  I like the rifle.........but it is frustrating me.  First the wood in front of the king screw broke out, then the bedding came loose (too much cosmoline), now I have apparently sized the brass too long. 

I KNOW that the bolt handle won't close on the handloads.  It is obviously a sizing problem. 

I appreciate your question though, Mountainview.  Inconsistent ignition has happened once before with this 36.5 grain load.  I think that it burned too fast/detonated.  The first time that I tried this load (when the forearm broke) I fired 5 rounds at 36.5 grains.  Two of the rounds were noticeably louder and had flatter primers.  The other 3 were normal sounding and looking.  Nothing dramatic...but noticeable. 

[bluebayou]

I had the exact same intermittent handload misfire issue with my CZ 7.62x39mm and another so chambered bolt gun. Mostly the issues would happen with cci's as you've noted.

 ANYHOW! I only discovered the cause after a gentleman made me a cartridge gauge. What was happening was if FL resized my Lyman dies would push the shoulder back between .010 to .015" too far thus causing my misfire issues. Apparently theres some difference in 7.62x39mm chamber dimensions between SAAMI and CIP with the latter being slightly deeper. The solution was simply setting up my sizing die so resized cases would sit flush with the mouth of my case gauge.

 I've since purchased a Lee 7.62x39 collet die that's the bees knees for 7.62x39 bolt gun reloading eliminating all these issues

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=168561

So how should I proceed?

Do IMI, S&B, or Lapua brass have the "correct" dimensions?  I have 100 Winchester brass, but I already ran them through the sizing die on a rainy afternoon. 

I guess that I will have to fire the loaded ammo in the SKS and then resize to the CZ's dimension. 

I am definately going to get a Lee neck sizing die and 311 mandrel.  Do you use case gauges to set up your dies normally or just for issues like with this 7.62x39?

[R.W.Dale]

I had the exact same intermittent handload misfire issue with my CZ 7.62x39mm and another so chambered bolt gun. Mostly the issues would happen with cci's as you've noted.

 ANYHOW! I only discovered the cause after a gentleman made me a cartridge gauge. What was happening was if FL resized my Lyman dies would push the shoulder back between .010 to .015" too far thus causing my misfire issues. Apparently theres some difference in 7.62x39mm chamber dimensions between SAAMI and CIP with the latter being slightly deeper. The solution was simply setting up my sizing die so resized cases would sit flush with the mouth of my case gauge.

 I've since purchased a Lee 7.62x39 collet die that's the bees knees for 7.62x39 bolt gun reloading eliminating all these issues

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=168561

So how should I proceed?

Do IMI, S&B, or Lapua brass have the "correct" dimensions?  I have 100 Winchester brass, but I already ran them through the sizing die on a rainy afternoon. 

I guess that I will have to fire the loaded ammo in the SKS and then resize to the CZ's dimension. 

I am definately going to get a Lee neck sizing die and 311 mandrel.  Do you use case gauges to set up your dies normally or just for issues like with this 7.62x39?

IF you're issue is the same as mine the problem is with your dies not the brass. The brass was fine...originally...., it was my die that ruined these cases. Other than getting another rifle to shoot them I have yet to devise a means to restore these pieces of brass.

as an example according to my gauge a piece of new unfired rem ammo drops into my case gauge .004" below flush. A piece that I my dies FL resized goes in a full .011"   

 Try partial length resizing the cases you did get to fire and see if you still have the misfire problem. This should go a long ways to diagnosing this issue for certain.

I only have a 7.62x39 case gauge but for solving this one issue and keeping me from overworking my x39 brass for my AR15 its' proven to be invaluable. If you want I'll check out a couple pieces of your FL resized brass against this gauge if you'll pay the stamp.

[John Traveler]

Partial neck sizing does not work for certain calibers, specifically those with little body taper, including the .308 Winchester. 

The reason is that setting the sizing die to attempt sizing only the neck makes the body length (casehead-to-shoulder) dimension grow, often to the point of making it difficult or impossible to chamber the cartridge.

What you need is a "neck-size only" die, where the body is intentionally cut oversize so it does not touch the shoulder and only sizes the neck.

[Mikey]

blue:  I think the Enfield screwed up because there was moisture/dirt/grease, whatever, that built up and stiffened in the cold to cause misfires.  I have had this happen to me even with a 'dry' bolt, which you should have if you are just going 'ranging' or hunting' - seems that if you have the bolt cocked and the rear of the firing pin is sticking out of the back of the bolt, as it should, snow may build-up, melt and re-freeze and will cause misfires as the ice blocks the firing pin from hitting the primer. 

I think the problem with the CZ is a long neck/short body, which causes it to seat more deeply in the chamber, causing a misfire.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[bluebayou]

I can't consistently measure the 7.62x39 brass with calipers to be sure, but I lean toward the Krochus explanation.

The Enfield one I come and go on.  I have a hard time believing that .01 difference is keeping the bolt from closing.  But....that is out of spec. 

With then Enfield:
I know that the bolt handle wasn't closed
I know that the trigger moving the sear to release the cocking piece/firing pin
I know that the cocking piece/firing pin was NOT traveling all of the way forward
It was soft striking the primer.  The beauty of the Enfield is that you can recock without opening the bolt

I also know that when a hangfire DOES go off in an Enfield that you do NOT want your right thumb to be the only part of your body to be touching the rifle.  <it hurt, trust me>

going to resize 308 brass to spec
going to ask Santa for some necksizing dies in 308 and 7.62x39

[Mikey]

"I also know that when a hangfire DOES go off in an Enfield that you do NOT want your right thumb to be the only part of your body to be touching the rifle.  <it hurt, trust me>".....

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who do not know how to properly manipulate a military bolt action.  I love the movies that show hardened storm troopers or experienced snipers use two fingers on a military bolt. 

The use of a military bolt, whether commercial sniper or scoped mil-bolt, is with the open hand, and specifically the palm of the open hand.  At no time is the bolt handle to be grasped by a closed hand or two fingers. 

The action is to be opened using the open palm of the right hand against the bolt handle, levering the handle through its full arc until the open palm can draw the bolt fully to the rear to extract and eject the spent cartridge.  The open palm is then used to close the action on a live round and bring the rifle ready to fire. 

If you note, the use of the open palm prevents the bolt from tearing off your thumb or smashing through your wrist if a hang-fire or delayed-fire occurs. 

In addition, the use of the open palm can be used to function the action much more positively than with just two fingers. 

And it ain't just with the Enfield..............

[bluebayou]

For the record, I waited 2 minutes.  I reached for the rifle to grasp the wrist of the stock.  My thumb must have brushed the cocking piece to make it close. 

I appreciate your advice. 

[cwlongshot]

Blue,
 Have you had a chance to load up any for test fire? I hope you got this one licked!

 Merry CHRISTMAS and Happy New Year,

CW