Author Topic: I have a dumb question (Read 1953 times)

243shooter · « **on:** April 02, 2011, 06:03:26 PM »

i was shooting my uberti saa clone a couple weeks ago. it was shooting about 6" low at 25 yards, so i got my file out and went to work on the front sight. i was shooting off of a rest of sorts and holding the revolver tightly with both hands to hold it steady. after some filing i got the gun to where i was shooting about 2" low. i figured i'd wait till i was on a better rest and had more time to fine tune it. well today i was at the range resting the gun on a sand bag and it is shooting 6" high at 25 yards. WHAT THE H--- HAPPENED? if i hold a straight edge on top of the gun the front sight is still much higher than the top of the frame. eyeballing it with a straight edge the gun should still be shooting very low. the only explaination i can dream of is that when i was shooting off of the sand bag i was not holding it with both hands and not so tight. could recoil be raising the muzzle this much before the bullet comes out? i sure hope i haven't screwed myself by filing to much off. i can't imagine that the way i'm holding it could make that much difference. i was always under the assumption that the bullet was long gone before recoil moved anything.

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2011, 06:48:01 PM »

Quote from: 243shooter on April 02, 2011, 06:03:26 PM

the only explaination i can dream of is that when i was shooting off of the sand bag i was not holding it with both hands and not so tight. could recoil be raising the muzzle this much before the bullet comes out?

YOU BET!!! Shooting a single action is like shooting a bow....consistency is the key. Next time you are at the range, take an offhand shot gripping the revolver nice and light. Next shot, hold the gun with a deathgrip. You are going to be amazed at the difference even at close range and with light loads. Shot my buddy's Redhawk last week and from about 15yards, there was a good 6" difference.

Jim

243shooter · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2011, 06:58:10 PM »

hey, thanks alot. i will do some more experimenting with how i hold. i mostly shoot rifles and don't have much practice with a six gun.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2011, 09:52:13 PM »

243-

Shooting from a good rest is a good way to see how accurate your revolver is, but it is not a good way to see where the gun is going to hit when shot off hand. Whether your rest is hard or soft, and how you hold the gun does make a difference. When I was a cop, and a Instructor, I used to see a lot of guys shooting from a barricade position, resting the gun against the wood post. It usually threw their shots wide. Guys who rested their forearms against the barricade always did a lot better, so yes, recoil does effect shot placement before the bullet leaves the barrel.

I always shoot high left with my single actions, no matter how much I concentrate on the fundamentals. Don't have that problem with double action or semi-auto handguns. Just the way I grip them, I suppose, since accuracy is not an issue. I long ago came to terms with all my S/A sights being adjusted low and to the right.

I would try different loads to see what regulates closest to your sights, fired off hand, then try different grip styles, such as your little finger under the grip, left thumb resting on the recoil shield, etc. Once you settle on a grip you like, and a load, then fine tune your sights from there.

When I shoot a handgun from the bench, I try to rest my arms on sand bags, with the gun out in front of me, minimizing the effect of the gun bouncing off the rest. I shoot from the rest for accuracy, and not necessarily point of impact, as it will vary from off hand.

Larry

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2011, 03:39:33 AM »

hate to say it but another main cause of what your seeing is flinching. Alot of guys tend to push a gun away from them when shooting off hand and the gun goes forward and down. Load your gun with an occasional empty spot in the cylinder and see if your doing it. It doesnt take much to make it happen. Like was also said. A consistant grip is about the most important thing in shooting a handgun well. You can have the best trigger control and sight picture in the world but if your grip is varying in location or strenght your groups will be all over the place.

MePlat · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2011, 05:10:08 AM »

You have learned a very valuable lesson. Now send it to custom gunsmith and have a drift adjustable front put on and have it made extra high.
Next time file it in offhand at least at 25 yards. Holding a gun "down" on the bags and sighting it in is for the birds unless you are going to shoot that way all the time. You are impeding the upward movement of the barrel. Hence the point in the recoil arc where the bullet exits the barrel.
Now one can lightly touch the front bag with the barrel with no grip bag just to take some of the movement out with a looser grip to compensate and it will be very close to offhand but you have to experiment with that to find the correct amount of both.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2011, 07:10:32 PM »

Ask a dumb question and sooner or later you'll get a dumb answer. Not intended to imply any answers so far fit that category.

Meplat is correct the most likely reason is when shooting from rest you were in some way impeding the recoil of the gun that you didn't the second time. I like to rough sight from rest but the final sighting of a handgun is ALWAYS done offhand and as much like I expect it shoot it later as possible.

I have developed my technique over a few hundred thousand rounds to the point I can shoot with rest and have it hit at 25 yards same as off hand but the only thing touching the bags is my wrists. I can "almost" duplicate it using a really softly filled sandbag made from a lead shot bag only partially filled while actually resting the heel of my hand on the bag but only close not quite the same. The more recoil the revolver has the more it matters. With a rimfire I've managed to pretty much do it either way.

With a centerfire close is as good as I can get.

We used to shoot a lot of matches both for money, trophies and sometimes just bragging rights. All shooting was free hand and you can bet those guns were sighted in the same. Once I got it about there I'd shoot 20 or more rounds (50 with rimfires) into the target free hand and adjust based on where the majority of the bullets hit. It can take quite awhile but if ya want that gun to hit where ya aim I feel that's the way to get it there. One group won't cut it.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:14:45 AM »

The "plow handle" grip of the SSA rotates in the shooting hand during recoil and especially during the time the bullet is in the barrel. This means the butt also rotates down. On the bench when rested in the hands or on a sand bag the butt does not rotate down as much if at all, hence the muzzle does not rotate up as much during barrel time. Thus the bullets strike low. Using a a solid two handed grip will also cause a slightly lower point of impact vs a looser one hand grip. As mentioned, consistency in the grip is important which is why it is best to zero with the grip and position most often used.

Larry Gibson

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2011, 09:09:12 AM »

All good stuff , I would add that sun light and clouds play a part in the placement of shots also. As the clouds dim the light you start to raise the front sight to see it better .

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2011, 11:22:03 AM »

I knew if I kept reading on here enough I'd find out why I'm so inconsistent when shooting my BH!

Note to self: Get off of the rest and figure out how to hold that BH the same way everytime!

THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HWD

MePlat · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2011, 11:35:20 AM »

huntswithdogs:
I don't know if you were interjecting some humor or were serious but in case you were serious if you will reseach shooting a gun you will see consistancy of holding is the important thing. After trigger control and sight alignment. Rifle or handgun.
The trouble is many think they can get around a tried and true method that had been proven for upteen years by many of the best shooters in the world. (I wish I had that great of an opinion of myself.) They will burn thousands of rounds trying to establish their own brand of shooting style and never get much beyond average. If even average.
Trigger contol, sight alignment and gripping consistancy. And learning how to shoot without the aid of a bench and sandbags.

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2011, 02:21:11 PM »

Quote from: 243shooter on April 02, 2011, 06:03:26 PM

.................. i was always under the assumption that the bullet was long gone before recoil moved anything.

Not so !!

If you think about it for a second or so, that is why the front sight sticks up as much as it does.
Newton's Third law goes into instant effect although you might not notice it.

.22-5-40 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2011, 08:42:14 PM »

I sent a 2nd. gen. Colt S.A.A. 71/2" .38 spec. to Hamilton Bowen for action work & sight-in. When I got it back..started accuracy testing off sand bags at 25yds. Gun shooting low and right..I'm talking lower R.H. of whole tatget! Tried heavy bullets..this helped but still low..called Bowen..they offered to re-sight gun.
Finally the o'l light bulb flickered on..stood on my hind legs and shot like Col. Colt intended...shooting p.o.a. & windage perfect! I never would have thought it would have made that much difference!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2011, 02:21:45 AM »

anymore i dont use a rest when i bench my handguns. I use one bag to rest my wrist on like greybeard. If your trigger control is good and your not flinching shooting with your wrist on a bag will put your point of aim where it would be off hand or close enough anyway. To shoot decent groups like this about mandates a good trigger with no creap and a pull weight of 3lbs or less. Anymore and its about impossible to keep the sights steady on a target as you pull. Same goes for off hand shooting though.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2011, 02:25:25 AM »

most likely caused by the fact that most inexperinced handgun shooters tend to grip the gun lighter when benching then they do when shooting offhand. Even if your resting your barrel when benching if you have proper trigger control and use a consistand grip poa should change more then a couple inches when shooting off hand.

Quote from: .22-5-40 on April 04, 2011, 08:42:14 PM

I sent a 2nd. gen. Colt S.A.A. 71/2" .38 spec. to Hamilton Bowen for action work & sight-in. When I got it back..started accuracy testing off sand bags at 25yds. Gun shooting low and right..I'm talking lower R.H. of whole tatget! Tried heavy bullets..this helped but still low..called Bowen..they offered to re-sight gun.
Finally the o'l light bulb flickered on..stood on my hind legs and shot like Col. Colt intended...shooting p.o.a. & windage perfect! I never would have thought it would have made that much difference!

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #15 on:** April 06, 2011, 06:49:00 AM »

Meplat and others,

The only humor meant was me poking it at myself. I've shot long guns since I was old enough to hold one up, but until recently I'd not shot a whole lot of handguns other than shooting informal targets. If I could hit a plate or piece of paper and keep the shots under 8-10 inches, I was happy. Then I decided to make my deer hunting a little more intersesting by buying myself a 7.5'' BH in 45LC. The 8-10 inch idea went right out the window! Now I had to learn to shoot in a set spot and keep it as small as possible at distance, not 7-10yds.
What I'm learning, I'm learning on my own. You guys are my teachers without ever knowing it!

HWD

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2011, 06:52:15 AM »

Oh I forgot to say or admit that I'm 52 and still learning...thankfully.

HWD

Sensai · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2011, 10:10:28 AM »

I agree HWD, if I ever stop learning, life's going to get awfully boring. I'm only 63, though.

Thanks for the lesson, GB. My favorite handgun is an old Ruger Mk II. I never had a problem providing camp meat with it, but since I got a new rest I decided to adjust the sights. Thankfully it's the target model with adjustable sights, because after I "zeroed" it I couldn't hit doodley. I learned then that it takes a lot longer to "zero" one off-hand than it does from a rest; but at least I can hit with it again! Now I understand enough about what went on to try again, but I think that I'll just leave the hanguns that need a file to adjust alone for now. See I've already leaned that running the file backwards doesn't put the metal back on!!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2011, 11:29:16 AM »

just dulls the file .......

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2011, 11:30:42 AM »

you can chalk the sight from top down and aim with the still black showing to get an idea what height you need .

Sensai · « **Reply #20 on:** April 07, 2011, 03:26:09 AM »

WOW, already learned something else! Thanks Shootall.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** April 07, 2011, 11:20:45 AM »

Also thin lines of gold or silver can be set in the front sight for aiming points for distance or different loads . Just let the line and top of the rear sight line up.

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on April 03, 2011, 03:39:33 AM

Alot of guys tend to push a gun away from them when shooting off hand and the gun goes forward and down.

That's me!

Jim

crab cake · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2011, 06:14:40 AM »

I'm another old guy who's glad he read this post before breaking out the file.
I have two Vaquero Bisleys and have been working on 265 and 300 gr "grizzly bear" loads off the bench and was about ready to start filing
Thank you!!!

hunterspistol · « **Reply #24 on:** April 09, 2011, 12:18:39 AM »

Grip is very important to point of aim. Another thought here would be that heavier bullets will always shoot with a much higher arc in their flight path. It can be hard to zero but, the advantage is that they'll carry much farther. A lighter bullet shoots flatter with less accuracy 'way on out there' or at distance.

Just thought that might need mentioning here. And here's the grip chart that I'm not so good at interpreting, lol.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2011, 04:14:51 AM »

I don't think any one noted it yet but its best to choose the grips you will use before filing .

gcrank1 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:48:32 AM »

First rule of metal removal: It is easier to take off than to put back on.
Second rule: Read Rule One
Hold, light, strength of your grip that day, alignment of the planets.........
Ive lived with some of mine long enough to know that I am the biggest variable in the whole snakepit of accuracy.
Ive also had my first shot be the best of the bunch before I 'fell apart' on the fundamentals. If that happens with you, the sights are probably fine.
If not, still read Rule One.