Anyone have any reduced load data on 405gr Beartooth in 454 ?

[suba]

Hi guys,

I'm sort of new here, but not new to firearms. I just bought a really nice 454 on GB last week that included a Colt cylinder. I ordered two boxes of 405's from Beartooth and would like to push them about 1000fps but I'm not sure which powder.  H110 isn't for reduced loads, and I've heard Lil Gun isn't either, but I've shot 360's over 15.5 of Lil Gun in my 45 Colt Dan Wesson estimating somewhere around 1000fps with no worries, but I have no experience with the 405's.

 I'd like to shoot the 405's in my Colt cylinder, then possibly work up a hotter load in the 454. I think this is doable. I've looked at the numbers and see no reason I can't chamber the rounds. I'm not too worried about crimp because with my intended velocity I can't see the bullets jumping. 

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience or advice.

Thank you....

[Graybeard]

While I'm not familiar with that particular bullet I'd expect it to be for the .45-70 at that weight and thus be sized to .458" most likely. Your FA 83 is likely to have a .452" bore. That's a LOT of extra lead to be pushing down that small a bore if so. Personally I refuse to shoot .458" rifle bullets down a smaller bore and do not recommend it. And 405 grains is a super heavy in the .454 Casull and in my personal opinion not a wise choice.

[suba]

Nope, 405's are .452

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you feel shooting a 405gr .452 isn't a wise choice ?

[Graybeard]

Just don't feel it's a properly balanced weight for the case volume. Anything the .454 Casull is up to can be done with bullets in the 320-340 weight range in my opinion. Some who've taken it to Africa for the likes of elephant and cape buff have chosen 360s but to me even that is a bit heavier than I care for in it. If you feel you need 400 grains then move to the larger bore of the .475/.480 and there you can get 420-440 grain that work well.

Just a personal thing with me. I think each bore diameter has a proper range of bullet weights that work well in them. For me 405 grains just isn't in that optimal range for .452".

[suba]

I've read quite a few of you're post, and you always make good sense. I know 400 grains is on the far end for a 454, but IMHO they are not unsafe in the right hands. I'm a pretty accomplished reloader, and have a lot of experience with heavy for caliber. I used to load 850 gr bullets over 250 grains of powder in my 50 BMG. I don't need to shoot a 405 gr in my 454, but believe it's perfectly safe for me and the gun if done right keeping the velocity under 1100 with the right powder. There are some loads published driving a 405gr to 1250 and the load was said to be mild. The only concern I had was what's the minimum velocity to keep them stable. The 454 has a 1-24 twist which indicates it's optimized for light to medium heavy bullets.

The 360gr I shoot work really well in both my DW and my FA, and I'm only pushing them maybe 1000+.  You are right that staying in the proper bullet range will stack the deck in you're favor. Go outside the envelope and you're basically a test pilot, so you better do you're homework or suffer the consequences. There's a site that talks about a guy in Africa shooting his 454 Casull. His load was a 420gr going over 1400fps. Now that to me is crazy 

 I'm still curious if anyone has loaded 395's or 405 in 454. Maybe someone will sooner or later chime in.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.....

[Graybeard]

I certainly agree that so long as you can locate pressure tested data there is no reason why a 400 grain can't be safe in the .454 it's more a personal thing with me that it just doesn't "seem appropriate" from my view of normal bullet weights for the round not a safety matter. Finding the data tho is gonna be the chore.

I guess I've never personally seen any data for it. So long as the diameter is correct tho and you can find tested load data it should be safe. How well it will work is a question I have no answer for. Twist rate and bullet length plus velocity will determine if it is stabilized well enough to be accurate.

[Hank08]

Suba,  I used to shoot loads like that when I was younger and my wrists were stronger.
I used H110, there's few, if any, 400 gr. loads that you could call reduced loads.  I used a 420 gr. cast sized to .452,  .45C cases, H110, cci 350, FA 71/2" .454 for 1358 fps.  That same load out of a 10" contender .45C was 1496fps and recoil was way more than I wanted
even then.  But for you only wanting 1000 fps, I'd suggest starting with the same load you use for the 360, you might have to tweak it a little if you want it exactly 1000 but it's gonna be close.  Mostly now I shoot 320 fpgc at 1350 from a 6" FA .54 and the same load at 1250fps
from a 6" Ruger BHK.
H08

[suba]

Hey Hank,

If you shot 420's@ 1358 you're a better man than I am. I don't have the wrists anymore either, that's why I usually shoot light loads. 15.5 gr of Lil Gun under a 360HC is the minimum recommended load, and it's a real easy load in my 7 1/2 FA.  I think 22.5 of LG is considered max. I'm sure I'm perfectly safe with 15.5 under a 405. The pressure will most likely be a little higher and the velocity a little lower then the 360 load. I probably would drop the initial load to 13.5 and have a look see.

The issue with getting too low with LG is pretty much the same as with H110 although it's not as unpredictable from what I understand. What I'm after is the minimum velocity to keep the bullet stable out to 50 yards. The 1-24 twist isn't so good for slow and heavy, so I'm guessing around 1100 would most likely be minimum in a FA.   

Thanks for your hard earned advice.....

[Hank08]

Re the 24" twist.  Some yrs. ago I had a single shot pistol that was in 45C that was relined with a piece of .45 muzzleloader barrel with a 1 in 66" twist, 8" barrel.  it was made to better shoot 410s and it did shoot them well (less than 1/8th of a turn in 8") but what surprized me was it shot cast bullets so well and any weight.  400s or 420s was the heaviest I shot in it and at only about 6 or 700 fps but even at that speed they stayed point on and would shoot 2" at 50 yds.  I'm still kicking myself for ever letting that gun go.  Anyway you may be surprized at what the 24 twist will do. 
H08

[suba]

As always, real experience beats guessing or calculating out of a book.

Thanks.....

[MarkH]

395's in 454 brass are quite doable and makes for an interesting load, though personally I prefer the 300-325 grain weight in the 454.

I don't recall the powder I used, but the data came from Cast Performance, the maker of the bullet.  Or perhaps Hodgdon.

In any event, crimp jump might very well be an issue, particularly in the lighter/shorter barreled guns.

[GrampaMike]

These are not reduced loads, but they are not hot loads either.
I do not have a FA revolver yet, (on my wish list).
I do like the 454 Casull though, have it in a custom Encore barrel 21".
Also a Puma 454 Casull 24" and a Taurus Raging Bull 8.375".
Plus I almost only shoot Beartooth Hard Cast thru them.
Beartooth are 22 BHN (if my memory serves me), so I keep my loads between 25k-29K PSI.
I also chrony my loads during testing.  The only thing calculated in the following list is energy figures.
Over the last few years I believe I have shot just about every Beartooth bullet thru my Encore.
The following data only contains my FINAL load for each (the most accurate of each), not showing the loads both lower and higher that did not work out.

In order of accuracy for my firearms, as you can see the 405 was last and did not have the energy of some of the others.

                             Trim   COL   Bullet               Weight   Powder                   MV   Energy
                        
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WFNGC   280   HodgdonLilGun   29.8   1911   2271
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.790   BTB LFNGC   300   HodgdonLilGun   27.6   1801   2160
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB LMNGC   285   HodgdonLilGun   27.5   1822   2100
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.675   BTB WFNGC   265   HodgdonLilGun   27.9   1868   2053
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WLNGC   300   HodgdonLilGun   26.6   1765   2076
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WFNGC   280   HodgdonH110   30.5   1869   2172
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.695   BTB WFNGC   300   HodgdonLilGun   25.1   1708   1943
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.825   BTB WLNGC   345   HodgdonLilGun   25.1   1645   2072
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.790   BTB LFNGC   300   HodgdonH110   28.2   1759   2060
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.765   BTB FNGC   325   HodgdonLilGun   23.9   1628   1913
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB LFNGC   340   HodgdonLilGun   23.7   1601   1935
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WLNGC   355   HodgdonLilGun   23.0   1557   1911
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.825   BTB WLNGC   345   HodgdonH110   25.7   1611   1989
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.680   BTB FNGC   325   AlliantBlueDot   15.7   1451   1519
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.680   BTB FNGC   325   VihtavuoriN105   15.3   1438   1493
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.875   BTB LCMNGC   350   VihtavuoriN110   22.2   1534   1828
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WLNGC   355   HodgdonH110   23.4   1515   1809
454 Casull Beartooth   1.375   1.775   BTB WLNGC   405   HodgdonLilGun   19.0   1346   1629

[suba]

Many thanks to all for your help, and Mike thanks for share your load data.  Here's a picture of my baby. I recently picked it up on GB. It's hardly been shot, and has the old firing pin and carbide forcing cone. The grips look to be the old Westinghouse paper micarta. It was sent off to FA to be tweaked, and in fact it's ready to be shipped back on Monday. I'll tell you, those people at FA are the best to deal with.

[22popnsplat]

If you go to here http://www.hodgdon.com/# and look up the 454 data , they list a 395 grain bullet at about 1075 fps that should give you a decent starting point

[suba]

Thanks for the link. I've already seen that info but you're right about that data should get me close. One thing I hadn't thought about much is the BHN. All of Beartooths bullets look to be 21-22 BHN. In fact it seems most commercial HC are probably too hard along with the lubes. I've been shooting Oregon Trail 360 .452 and although they don't post the BHN on their website I read a reviewer mention the 360's were 15-16 BHN which may or may not be true. Both of my 45's like that load ( 1000-1100 fps ) with a black bore condition and no leading.

Even though many HC are gas checked, I think it's almost always a good idea to match the pressure with the BHN if possible. I think CP also has a pretty high BHN. I'm relatively new to cast, so I'm going up the curve.

[BigMuddy]

Suba

You said your gun was at FA now? If so, ask them about shooting Lil Gun powder in your revolver before you do it.

I have shot a few of the heavy weight bullets also, and my best luck was with H4227 powder. Some of them are too long for the 454 case and you may only be able to use them in your 45 colt cylinder.

Very nice looking Mod 83.

[suba]

Hey Muddy,

My gun's being shipped back tomorrow. I know there's some controversy about Lil Gun. I've only shot several rounds with Lil Gun, but I do have a concern about the powder. I forgot to ask FA about Lil Gun when I spoke to them, and usually I've had to leave a message over there then wait for a return call, so I'm not sure I want to bother them with it. I suspect I won't be shooting anymore Lil Gun for  now. I've heard H4227 works well too, so maybe I'll pick some up. I can believe the Colt cylinder would be good with the heavies provided the pressure is reasonable.

Thanks for the compliment on my 83......