Dan Wesson, Custom Order Only?

[jumpsteady]

I just recently noticed that there are no D W revolvers on CZ's or Dan Wessons website anymore. So I sent them an email. Here is the entire deal, my email and their reply.


----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Lewis
To: genny@cz-usa.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 8:48 PM
Subject: Dan Wesson Revolvers


Is it just me. or are there no revolvers shown on your web site. does this mean that you are no longer making these fine firearms? Just curious.
 
                                               Jeff Lewis
                                          kidmachinist@hotmail.com


At this time we are not.  We hope to start making the revolvers for custom orders only soon.  I'm sorry for the inconvenience.  Thank you for contacting Dan Wesson Firearms.
 
 
CZ-USA / Dan Wesson Firearms
5169 State Hwy 12, South
Norwich, NY  13815
607-336-1174 Ext# 23
607-336-2730 Fax
 
Genny Dutcher
DWF Office Manager


Now this is crap. First CZ buys DW out then they start making 1911's, which are fairly nice guns but that is beside the point, and now they are going to quit making the revolvers that made the brand Dan Wesson world famous. I just wish my dad wouldn't have sacrificed so much when his 15 year old son, me, wanted to go deer hunting and wouldnt have traded his DW 44mag with a 6" full under lug, 8" ported and 8" non-ported full under-lug, for a single shot .243. Ain't life a bitch. 

[Steel Shooter]

Jeff:
You have said it all!!
It truly ticked me off greatly as well, as I have been an owner, shooter and seller of Dan Wessons for over 20 years. I recognized LONG, LONG ago that they made an exceptional revolver, unrivaled for its price!! Plus, they made the ONLY revolver where the owner, who might have had ten thumbs (in other words, mechanically a duffas, like me) could change his own barrel length or barrel shroud style by himself.
And then, after years and years of the company and its uncertain futures (changing ownerships), it is bought by a BIG, solid and well financed corporation like CZ....and they told us they were going to continue the well made "revolver product line". And, now they have stopped...it must be at least a year now.
I gave them a purchase order for 5 revolvers about 6 months ago - haven't heard a peep from them - seems like it was just ignored.
And so, we all just wait, and pray.

Wayne

[jumpsteady]

It just pisses me off that CZ is doing this. Here I am, 24 years old, married, and a father of a 5 month old daughter, and I saved for 10 months to buy a Dan Wesson because I wanted, in my opinion, the best revolver money could buy. And look here, they screw me. Why is it they decided that Dan Wesson was a 1911 maker, not a revolver maker. I guess I will know just have to buy a used one. And I really wanted to be able to be the first one to shoot it, i wanted it to be mine. I wish there was a way we could make them change their mind.

[Steel Shooter]

I hear ya, guy.
The reason that they continued the Dan Wesson name, but only in currently available semiautomatics is because CZ was, is and will continue to be a semi-automatic company.

It may be possible to get them to change their mind, but it would take a substantial effort, by many people. The start would be for everyone that reads this forum who owns, shoots and/or loves their revolvers...we all need to write letters to Dan Wesson, and also send a copy to CZ-USA, expressing our NEED for this revolver brand to continue. Companies sometimes respond to market (we are the market) pressure, and make goods to meet the market's needs, especially if the company is financed well.

So, let's get some letter writing going!!!

[El Hombre]

I had the pleasure of meeting Keith Lawton from Dan Wesson at the NRA show.
At that time I asked him about the possibility of a return to revolver production.
It looks like there are no plans to produce anymore revolvers at this time. All equipment & manpower is dedicated to 1911 production, which is running full capacity. Revolvers would mean a new line, new equipment & personel. Actually everyone formerly involved in revolver production is gone. Keith is handling the service work on the old revolvers himself. The production line for revolvers is gone.
The sad truth is, the new revolvers just weren't selling. They couldn't keep production ahead of the orders for the 1911s. Therefore the change. Dan Wesson is a very small company. Total production for this year is going to be 2500 units total. 2009 production is estimated at 3,000 units. Other companies produce that many guns in a week.
I think the only hope for a return to revolver production would involve a distributor such as Lew Horton pre-ordering a quantity of guns that would mean guaranteed sales for Dan Wesson.
Keith Lawton is vey active on the Dan Wesson section of the 1911forum.com website. Since it is a 1911 forum, repeated revolver posts probably won't be allowed. But you can always PM. Or post about 1911 models & slip in a revolver statement. Keith is a nice guy and very responsive to customers.

[Steel Shooter]

El Hombre:
I agree with you that Keith Lawton is an excellent person to deal with at Dan Wesson - he was responsible for getting probably the last 4 revolvers that I ordered from DW built. In fact, he personally finished the last one I ordered, by himself. CZ and DW need another half dozen people just like him!! But I disagree a little with a couple of points you have made...

   Revolvers would mean a new line, new equipment & personel.

My opinion is that it would not mean a NEW line.....they had revolver production going on during at least 2005, 2006 and early 2007, did they not?
New equipment??? Why? What's wrong with the equipment that they used to build the last 5 revolvers that I received from them in 2006 and 2007?
New personnel? Of course, this is needed, as I was told that they lost most of them over the last two years. The question is why. What happened to make those people leave? Not enough work to do? Then I would suggest that the sales and marketing depts. of CZ lacked good performance with regard to Revolvers (they do a fine job with marketing rifles and semi-autos though). Unhappy workers due to low wages? Forced attrition?

I would have taken two to three times as many revolvers from them than what they delivered to me over the last 3 years!! The problem was, at least for me, they did not have enough people to build the orders they had in a timely fashion. But I know that I am NO Lew Horton Distributing, or Bill Hicks Distributing, or Davidson's .

If the revolver line was not selling - it's simple....either pricing or marketing, or both could have been the problem. There are several answers to this.

What's truly a shame is that one of the finest, most accurate and strongest revolver designs may be dead soon, if it is not already. Damn it - THERE ARE ANSWERS TO THESE PROBLEMS!

Sorry for the rant, guys. Truly I am. It's just that my heart aches for this product line!! I've hit and knocked over bowling pins at 200 yards (tie-breakers in shooting competitions I used to attend) with my Dan Wessons - and know that it would NOT have been possible with an S&W, Ruger, Taurus or any other brand revolver in the DW's price range!!

Wayne

[jumpsteady]

I am a machinist by trade, the supervisor of a machine shop and have been doing machine work for the last 8 years. and I'm only 24. I work in a shop that sells parts internationally. So I now exactly what it take to get orders in the door and orders back out the door. And I also know first hand the way the manufacturing world is headed. the big push is to make parts( DW revolvers, Crankshafts, Hydraulic cylinder rods, whatever) that the lowest price you can, then sell it for the biggest profit margin possible. my boss has ran away more GOOD PAYING jobs than I can count because he tryed to charge way to much for the piece. Now stack on top of this that my shop doesn't pay the best in the world( that's why it took me 10 months to save the money), so we have a hard time keeping GOOD PEOPLE. Its not 'what can I make for the customer' anymore now its ' what can i get the customer to buy for an overly inflated price'. So now that you guys see where I stand, I can tell you that DW's price was not the problem. Their products were hands down exceptional in their price range. Don't tell DW that i said this, but they might have even been under-priced just due to the sheer machine work that went into them. So I see DW's problem as 1 of 2 things. 1, Marketing. where did they ever advertise at. no where that i can see. get the name out there, get the product in there hands. 2, CZ. this answer is 2 fold. First CZ makes semi-auto guns period. not good for a company that is world renowned for its revolvers. but on the flip side, CZ could have used DW to get into the revolver world, which goes straight back to number 1. I think the work was there, but CZ just wanted the DW name so they could sell their 1911's as American made guns. which they are, but when you hear CZ you think of ,import. I do not believe that CZ ever had any intentions of keeping the revolvers around. I was just hoping that i was wrong. Doesn't seem like I was.

[El Hombre]

Steel Shooter,
I feel your pain. But as far as disagreeing with this statement:

 Revolvers would mean a new line, new equipment & personnel.

That is a direct quote from Keith Lawton. His words, not mine. Actually what he said was if they would resume revolver production the guns would cost  @ $2,000.00 each. My Jaw hit the floor and I asked how that could be and that was his reply  "Revolvers would mean a new line, new equipment & personnel."

The revolver production line was converted to 1911 production. It no longer exists. All tooling is gone or converted. All 1911 production lines are running at full capacity, so they will not shut them down to make revolvers. Therefore, a return to revolver production would mean a new line, new equipment. As we both have stated the revolver personnel are gone, so hiring new employees & training would have to occur.

I asked about the possibility of outsourcing the production, (VERY common in the gun industry), and he said he doubted that would happen as CZ has shown little interest in the revolver production. He stated that he had even expressed his concerns to CZ about the S&W X frame pistols with their barrel/shroud construction and a possible patent infringment. He said there was little response.

I expressed to him my disappointment that it seemed that the DW revolver was doomed to disappear, especially as revolvers have seemed to be making a comeback in the market the last few years, and pointed to the increase of prices on the used market as evidence that the demand is there for these guns. He said that while you never say never, he doubted that there would  be any new production anytime soon.

I agree that better marketing could have possibly saved the revolver. In the beginning, it was DW revolver owners that were some of the first to try the 1911 line. Now that that line is successfull, 1911 owners are showing interest in the revolvers as proof by the inflated prices on the used market. This was all done by word of mouth. If proper advertising and production support had been supplied by CZ (as we hoped it would be after the buyout.) I think the revolvers would have been successfull.

Don't give up. Hammer the DW & CZ-USA websites with emails & calls. Talk to the reps at the trade shows. Take the time to write and old fashoned letter to the president of CZ-USA. It won't be deleated as quickly as an email.

[Steel Shooter]

El Hombre:

Thanks sincerely for your clarification, that those were Keith Lawton's words, that I was disagreeing with. You know, in reading your post above, you are one impressive gentleman....why?? Because you asked Keith all the appropriate and logical questions!! You nailed it perfectly.
You know, I must admit that after I read Jumpsteady's original post in this topic, I got EXCITED because in the reply he got from Genny Dutcher, she said "we hope to start making revolvers for custom orders only soon".....I immediately thought there was HOPE for the 2 purchase orders I placed with them back in late February of 2008 (I erred in my above post where I said I ordered 5 guns about 6 months ago). In these two orders I had requested a total of SIX GUNS and one extra barrel and shroud. I got EXCITED and emailed Genny and Keith the next day inquiring about the possibility of at least a partial filling of my POs. Well, Keith wrote me back right away and said that they will not be making revolvers. I selfishly felt how cruel it was to get my hopes raised only to have them thrown off a 100 story building to land on broken glass, nails, and bare 220Volt wires.

Your closing thoughts above in your last post, talk about the only things we DW lovers can do....but you know, after Keith told me in March of this year, after he got my purchase orders for 6 revolvers, that they would not fill or even hold my POs, I sent a copy of those POs to CZ-USA on March 17, 2008, along with a full page, single spaced typed letter expressing all the thoughts in my mind about the FINE revolver line that was disappearing. (if you'd like a copy of this letter, and it's a GOOD one (modestly), request it from me) I hoped and prayed that I'd get a response, whether by email or mailed letter, or phone call, but I NEVER got ANY kind of a response from them!!! I addressed it to the person that I thought I'd have the best chance of making an impression with - Ms. Sherri Goodwin - National Sales Manager. And, it wasn't easy getting her name from the guy I talked with at CZ-USA back then - it's like he was really screening any contacts with higher ups in the company. So, hey, if you know what the President's or CEO's name is, please let us all know.

It's interesting that you brought up the thought of out-sourcing with Keith Lawton too. I did the exact same thing last week with him in a few emails that we had going back and forth. He said they would not consider it due to the excessively high start-up costs.

I've just got this gnawing gut feeling that CZ-USA never wanted to do what was necessary to make the revolver line WORK in this market. And I truly believe that the first sign of this was CZ's lackluster effort in the "marketing" of the revolver product.

Thanks for being so understanding of my heartache, and for being so informative!

[crossfire]

"There will be no production of revolvers in the foreseeable future. The cost of retooling and materials would not be justified by the minimal sales the revolvers would generate."...A phone quote from Mr. Lawton

[jumpsteady]

Them they need to start marketing them better. That is the whole problem.

[Steel Shooter]

OK....Taurus in Brazil copied the S&W revolver design, and the Beretta 92 semi auto design.
Who can we contact to copy the Dan Wesson revolver design??!!!!!
This revolver NEEDS TO COME BACK TO THE MARKET. And the market needs to be SERIOUSLY DEVELOPED, nurtured, fed, embraced, DEVELOPED, researched, catered to, DEVELOPED, fertilized with frequent and well placed advertising, listened to, DEVELOPED, and, did I mention developed? CZ never did this - they didn't care to expend the effort - their first and last love is semiautos. This is all so obvious. Is it a chicken and egg situation?........DW didn't have enough quantity of revolver orders because their marketing efforts were terrible, or was their marketing effort severely lackluster because they didn't have enough revolver orders in house to support it??

Personally, for me, forget the S&W revolver design with that stupid lock on the side plate, and forget their big magnum X frame guns....and just give me the Dan Wesson revolver design in a nice selection of calibers. What's wrong with producing the DW large frame guns in a few calibers like the .414SM, .445SM, .454 Casull, .460 S&W Magnum, .500 S&W Magnum??? Why in the hell did they change or dump the revolver tooling? DW had a "niche" product - a speciality product - in their revolver line. For those reasons alone it should not have been cancelled. OK....so even if the profit margin on the revolvers would not make CZ-USA rich, or they didn't have purchase orders for 25,000 or 50,000 revolvers a year....couldn't they see the potential could exist that we that bought and used and loved their revolver product would come to them first as we bought our semiautos and rifles?? So even if their sixguns only made them 5% profit, they'd make it up from us as we bought their semiautos and rifles, undoubtedly marketed at decent and higher margins!

You people at CZ, listen............it's called brand loyalty!! Give us what we want and need and we'll come to you for MORE AND OTHER THINGS!

I just keep shaking my head in disbelief.

Friends, we need a concerted effort, to make CZ believe in the DW revolver line - and not just flush it away.

Wayne B.

[jumpsteady]

OK Wayne where do we start because I'm in this all the way. I agree if we need to try for a push for someone to copy them or buy the rights to them. Whatever it takes. CZ screwed the pooch on this one, and unfortunately we were the pooch. So know i ask, What can we do?, Where do we start?, When do we begin? I just can't believe that CZ is going to sit on this and let it die. I'm in. where do we start?

[gypsyman]

From my understanding,DW was getting their frames from S&W,(castings),barrels from Lothar/Walther, and most of their other parts where cast. I really don't see why new tooling. Most of the materials were outsourced. Just like their .45 are. If you check on who,what,when and where, I don't think that anything is actually manufactured in house. Just the right 'smith, doing the right job, and getting the parts to match.(maybe the shrouds were blued in-house?) My sneaking suspicion is, that, an over educated bean counter,(college educated business major, with no real experience in the gun industry!!),is calling the shots,pun intended.
And the real problem is, with the economy going down the tubes, the likely hood of CZ bringing back the revolver line, is probably slim and none.
What needs to happen, which chances are will not, is somebody needs to buy the rights and patents, and start producing them again.Make them like the Freedom Arms, but at half the price.  Let CZ keep the .45 auto, and let them hassle that market. Like we really needed another line of .45's. gypsyman

[jumpsteady]

I agree wholeheartedly gypsyman. that is exactly what should and/or needs to be done. Such a fine design and creation should not die a terrible death like this. At the hands of some overzealous former Commies. Just my opinion. Wish i could come up with the money to buy the rights and patents, I have the knowledge of machine tools to manufacture and put them together. This is just a disgrace to everything that Dan Wesson, himself, stood for.

[Steel Shooter]

Gents: I don't know what to tell you.
Reed 1911......are you out there? I believe you have some interest in the DW revolver line, and are a known player in the shooting industry. Can you chime in with your thoughts on all this?

A possible reason for CZ killing this revolver line....did they pick the wrong US distributor network to sell their guns?? I have very limited knowledge of this facet admitedly - I know of at least 2 distributors that carried their revolvers. Zander's in Illinois, and Bill Hicks in Minnesota. Were there others - does anyone know? Whenever I saw these 2 distributors advertising DW revolvers in their flyers, I bought them. Not a lot, because I was much smaller then. But I bought their product.

Another possible reason - the fast rise and then the slow fall of the IHMSA handgun shooting sport. In the 1980s the DW revolver WAS SUPERIOR in this competition - it was the revolver of choice. I bought (thru the IHMSA organization, who got them directly from Dan Wesson in MA) 3 different caliber DW revolvers and used them extenively in this long range handgun sport, and won several trophies. My first was a 10" barreled 357 Magnum. Then I tried an S&W 41 magnum in 8 3/8" for a little more knockdown power - and put it aside after a few competitions due to its lack of accuracy at 150 meters. Then, immediately bought DW's 44 mag. in 8" vent heavy barrel. Then in 1989 bought DW's NEW 445 SuperMag revolver with the 8" slotted shroud barrel. So, in my first 8 years of IHMSA competition, I bought and used extensively 3 of their highly accurate, strong as a Mack truck guns. Went on to use them for another 10 years in the sport. The disease of owning, loving and shooting DW revolvers developed during these first 8 years, and there was no cure. I will use NO other product for long range shooting - there is none better. Not even Freedom Arms, where you loose one round of capacity, do not have a double action option, and pay a heck of a lot more for the product.

But it all boils down to the company's attitude, WHEN THEY HAVE A NICHE PRODUCT LIKE THE DW DESIGN. Do you want to make it work - do you want to support your loyal (albeit small) customer base - do you want to sacrifice and get a much smaller profit margin, just to keep the niche product alive and envied in the industry - or do you say, hey, we don't need the line, it's too much trouble, let's let it die?

The Dan Wesson people are great people to deal with! Fully supportive with revolver repairs, parts and customer service. It's a shame we can't deal with them in the subject matter of new revolvers.

It truly blows me away that CZ has chosen to kill the revolvers and go full force at supplying the market with the little seen 1911 style pistol, that very few companies make. (sorry for the sarcasm, guys)

Wayne

[Reed1911]

Wayne,

I'm here, watching and waiting, and thinking. My honest opinion as to why the revolver line is being put on the back cooling rack? one reason only: $

[Steel Shooter]

Ron:
I wish it was just a "cooling rack".
But I get the distinct impression that it is instead, a coffin.

[micromike123]

OK Wayne where do we start because I'm in this all the way. I agree if we need to try for a push for someone to copy them or buy the rights to them. Whatever it takes. CZ screwed the pooch on this one, and unfortunately we were the pooch. So know i ask, What can we do?, Where do we start?, When do we begin? I just can't believe that CZ is going to sit on this and let it die. I'm in. where do we start?

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum - and I found it while looking for any information on what is going on with the DW revolvers?! Their old web site is still there, sending confusing messages! In the last few days, I bombarded CZ with several messages - and these are their answers to my e-mails:
====================================================================
Unfortunately we discontinued making revolvers indefinitely.
Brian Welch
Sales
CZ-USA Hunting & Sporting Firearms
800-955-4486 ext.319
brian@cz-usa.com
====================================================================
Mike,
Your information is correct.  All revolver production has been suspended and has been for the past year and a half.  We do still provide service parts and accessories for existing Dan Wesson Revolvers.
Thank you for inquiring,
Keith Lawton
Production Manager
Dan Wesson Firearms
Keith@cz-usa.com
====================================================================
I'm sorry we are not making any revolvers at this time.  That is an old sight.  I'm not sure why it is still available.  I will try to get that taken care of.  Thank you and I'm sorry for any inconvenience.
Genny Dutcher
DWF Office Manager
CZ-USA / Dan Wesson Firearms
5169 State Hwy 12, South
Norwich, NY  13815
607-336-2622 Ext# 23
607-336-2730 Fax
====================================================================

Now, what is NOT from their old site is the most cynical statement that I found on the current CZ web page - I am quoting:
"In 2005 a great opportunity came to Dan Wesson Firearms in the form of the world’s largest firearms producer CZ. CZ had been looking at Dan Wesson Firearms for its revolvers, innovative thinking and implementation of new products within the marketplace." [quote from: http://www.cz-usa.com/about_dan_wesson.php].

I don't think some evil Commies are trying to kill such a great design revolver  . However, whoever decided to cancel DW revolvers production is a very bad person (to put it mild) who doesn't care about the quality products and about the heritage.

The question was asked here: what can we do?! In my humble opinion, we can start by writing an intelligently-designed petition and posting it on http://www.gopetition.com/. Once the petition gets substantial number of signatures and comments, it can be printed ans sent to the CZ headquarters - both in the U.S. and across the pond...

Well... I guess I am naive... right?..

[Steel Shooter]

Mike:

First of all, thanks for finding this forum, and welcome. I just wish it was filled with good cheer, good news and happiness.

Secondly, I think you have done what everyone of us who reads this forum's topic about custom orders NEEDS to do - and that is contact the company and let them know what you think, in a respectful and courteous way. Sincere thanks for doing that!

I'm not sure if CZ-USA would respond to any petition put together by our hard work. They undoubtedly feel they know how to run their business. On 3/17/08 I sent them a 696 word letter, well written and respectfully done, filled with praise for the product line and demonstrating my commitment to the revolver line for the past 25 years, having owned approx. 15 Dan Wessons (some of which I have sold) in that time......and CZ did not even have the courtesy to reply to me IN ANY WAY (phone, email, or written letter).

I have often wondered what it would take for DW to start building sixguns again. I would be great if CZ-USA would tell us that. Then, at least we all would have a goal to work towards. But I seriously doubt that they would. Do they need to sell 10,000 revolvers a year?!? What does it take??!! Somebody, tell us. I keep pounding my head against the wall - if Freedom Arms can keep going in this high powered, big bore, specialty revolver market, why can't CZ? Why does CZ throw in the towel and surrender to let S&W, Freedom Arms, Ruger, etc take over ALL the sales in this market? For cripes sakes!!!!....DW had EXCLUSIVITY on a few calibers of handgun rounds that NO ONE else was building guns for....445SM, 414SM, 357SM, 460DW etc.     Sorry for the rant....I guess I've said this before in posts above - my frustration just comes to the surface way to easily over all this. It's the powerlessness (if that's a word) that is frustrating - the apparent ability to effect no change that elevates the blood pressure.

In summation - CZ and /or DW - tell us what it would take. If you truly have not permanently killed the revolver production, tell us what it will take.

Wayne Bachar - Centerfire Designs

[Explorer1]

Let's cut to the chase folks.  Businesses are created to make money, money to pay their employees, and money to reward those taking the risk.  No matter how good or bad the product, its about cash  - no positive cash flow and the business can not survive (we are not talking Congressional budgeting here).  We all like to eat and most of us have a dream of being able to retire rather than pass away on the job.

That said, DW had a long, sorted history.  It was a great design, but has always had business related problems - and under some of the owners had some real quality issues.

If you really want one, search the IHSMA handgun silhouette world for a used one.  They bought lots of them as they performed well (if they weren't broke) and held up to heavy loads (if you got a good one).

I too have shed mine, they are nearly a cult following anymore.  For the typical shooter they are great and will probably produce few problems in the owners lifetime.  For a shooter who put 1,000+ rounds a month through one, they commonly had issues.  Course, other than Freedom Arms not many revolvers would stand up to that level use and expectations for long.

[eggsucker]

Why any need to buy "rights and patents"?? patents are long expired, why pay the Euro's for a dead name..Call it the Taurus Raging Gator" or whatever.. eggsucker