Author Topic: Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?  (Read 977 times)

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Offline HHI 812

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« on: August 19, 2003, 08:21:20 AM »
Just wondering if they are worth the extra money and if they really work in handgun velocities? Now pretty much all the bullet makers make some sort of bonded bullet and wondering if anyone compared their performance? Thanks! e-mail at drminak@hotmail.com  :D

Offline Power

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2003, 07:49:02 PM »
I've shot the 150g Scirocco's in my 7mm rifle. Performance was ok but not quite as good as I'd hoped.

http://www.powerandfury.net/j02deer.html

Link at bottom for pictures of bullet damage.
-Power

Offline HHI 812

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Thanks!
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2003, 09:08:47 PM »
Have to admit, it did a lot of damage! Wonder how much velocity is really needed? So much I need to learn. Thanks!

Offline kciH

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2003, 10:35:33 PM »
Power,
regardless of the buck's reaction to the shot, that is stellar bullet performance.  You shot the animal at very close range with a high velocity round.  The bullet, as evidenced by your photos and post-mortum, opened up very well and held together and gave complete penetration.  I really don't see how you could ask any more of a projectile than what it gave you in this instance.  You can shoot a deer straight through the heart and it will still run up to 100, or so, yards. Further evidence of good performance is the fact that, based on your photos,  you can "eat right up to the hole" as the old timers say.  I don't see the evidence of a bullet failure that can often cause a large loss of edible meat when a bullet fails to hold together.

HHI812,
the bonded core bullet wouldn't really be needed with hangun velocities.  It wouldn't hurt to have the feature, but a bullet should be able to be designed to hold together on a close hit, yet still expand when the velocity drops.  I'm currently waiting on some tooling to make 7mm bonded core bullets with a very thin jacket for this express purpose.  The very thin jacket, and pure lead core,  should let the bullet expand when the velocity is decreased due to longer range, yet the bonded core should hold it together no matter what range the game is encountered at.  I'll be using the thinnest jackets that are available in order to facilitate expansion, but I admit the selection is rather limited at this time.  My "plan B" will be to use a jacket of variable thickness to attain rapid expansion at high or low velocity, when coupled with the bonded core, will not allow it to overexpand or blow up.  This is the ideal, expansion at any reasonable velocity level, but limited expansion so the penetration is not adversly affected, this is the holy grail of hunting bullets.  This is why the X bullet works so well in high velocity rifles: it will open down to around 2200fps or less, but even if the petals break off, it will still cause extreme damage in the vitals and continue to penetrate completely.  The bullets expands and retains it's weight at lower velocities, yet doesn't blow up at high velocity and still retains a good bit of it's weight, raising holy hell in between the entrance and exit wound either way.  The only downfall with the X is that it can often be hard to make shoot well from many rifles, especially if using the heavier weight bullets for that particular caliber.  The claim of "excess copper fouling" is a joke, all bullets foul and the fouling from the X is just as easy to clean out as any other.  It will be interesting to see how it works, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have the dies in time to work things up for this deer season.  Perhaps I'll be in luck.  I've got my fingers crossed. If it comes down to having to wait for next years season, I'll start with the tapered jackets, because it is my belief that they hold the most potential for optimum performance at handgun velocities.  If this is the case, I'll have time to get tooling to make the front section of the jackets drawn to a very thin thickness which will ensure expansion to a point, a tad less than two calibers would be ideal, with near full weight retention in order to not hinder penetration.  Expansion without penetration is the downfall of a hunting bullet, otherwise we'd just use varmint bullets for game.  If I can find a happy medium, I'll be very happy.  The other upside to the tapered jackets is that they start out at benchrest tolernace before being modified.  I'll be testing the bullets in a XP-100 in .284 Winchester, so I can go as fast as the fastest handgun and as slow as the 7TCU and 7-30 Waters.  I know there are more powerful rounds in handguns with the easy availability of the Encore, but the big mags are certainly not for everyone.  I'd rather have the performance and light weight of a contender in 7-30 Waters, not to mention the fact that it has mild recoil and muzzle blast, than a 7mag (or whatever) in a Encore.  If it's fun to shoot you will, and you'll become a better shot.

Offline HHI 812

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KciH your really getting into it!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2003, 07:57:05 AM »
Thanks for the explanation. So seems like the handgun needs different jacket thicknesses. I was hoping with these new bonded bullets, it would expand at handgun velocities at close and at longer distances. Can't really afford making my own bullets, so have to depend on commercial. Any suggestions on a brand you've had good luck on? I was needing the bullets for a .30 caliber. Like say a .308 Win in an Encore 14"? Appreciate any advise! Thanks! :D

Offline T/C nimrod

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2003, 08:20:37 AM »
HHI 812 - I know Sierra and Hornady make bullets specifically for handgun velocities (read: rifle calibers at handgun velocities). They will be designated as such in their descriptions. Hornady for example lists their's as SSSP - Single Shot Spire Point, I believe - may be off on that one. The flavor is up to you.

Offline HHI 812

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Thanks T/C nimrod!
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2003, 09:05:06 AM »
Will do!

Offline KYODE

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2003, 09:34:57 AM »
T/C nimrod nailed it! in 30 caliber, sierra makes a 135gr sigle shot pistol bullet(sspb), and hornady makes the 130gr single shot pistol bullet(sspb). i'm shooting the 130gr hornady sspb in my 30-30 improved contender. i also shoot the sierra 80gr sspb in my 6mm's. all these bullets i've tried are very accurate shooters. :D

Offline kciH

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2003, 10:10:23 AM »
HHI 812,
I've had good luck with the Hornady SSP in .35 caliber and also the Sierra in 7mm.  The one thing that you should take into account is that these bullets where designed for the slower pistol calibers of the day.  The 308 wasn't your average pistol in those days.  The Encore opened the floodgates of fullpower rifle cartridges in pistols, this simply wasn't the case in the past. Things may have been changed as far as construction, but the .30 SSP would probably be optimum for 30-30's and .30 Herrets.  If you've got a few minutes you should call Hornady, or send them an email, and ask what is the optimum velocity range for their SSP bullets.

Offline Power

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2003, 03:15:38 PM »
kciH,

My intent was to imply that a bonded bullet, like the Scirocco, is, in my option, too much bullet for deer size game. I think a balistic tip or soft point would provide better performance across the range of likely hunting scenarios. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed, controlled expansion, even at near 3,000 fps. For larger, tougher game a bonded bullet would be a good choice. The other reasons I can't recommend the Scirocco is they are very long for their weight. The 150g were too long to fit in the magazine for my Browning A-bolt at the OAL I needed for accuracy. I had to use a rat-tail rasp to notch the front of the mag. and still wasn't enough room. Thus accuracy wasn't as good as other rounds.

Of course we did recover the deer but I believe a different bullet would have performed better in this situation.
-Power

Offline kciH

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2003, 03:31:34 PM »
Power,
I feel your pain on the Scirocco's.  I been having a tough time getting them to shoot well out of my .270 Wthby also.  The 3400fps is great, but at the ranges where it would be useful to have the velocity, the accuracy isn't what it needs to be.  I've got a couple boxes left, so maybe I'll happen on to a load that has a good blend of accuracy and velocity. My suspicion on the less than stellar accuracy of the scirocco is a lack of uniformity in the extra thick jacket, but I have no proof of that, and I don't know if the accuracy is less then good with all of them or not. I'm interested to see how the 6mm version will shoot in the factory ammo, that may help to lend some insight on the matter.  I'm not rushing out to buy a box or two to test in the .340 just yet either.

I would disagree on it being too much bullet, the scirocco might be with it's super thick jacket, but not a bonded core in general.  The core bonding prevents bullet failure and that is the advantage to it primarily.  I think the Accubonds are made to order for deer hunting with 30-06 class and up cartridges.  They'll hold together and give good expansion even at the lower velocities associated with extended range shooting.  I guess time will tell.  

Nice website.

Offline Power

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2003, 03:50:12 PM »
I see your point. Perhaps the bonded cores might prove to be pretty good on deer. Like you said, we'll have to wait to see. It will also be interesting to see if your theory holds on the uniformity of the jacket thickness being the problems with accuracy. Let me know what you find out. I'm also curious about the bullets you intend to build as most people don't usually do that. Good luck with that.

My only other beef with the Sciroccos was the premium price-tag but you'll find that with any premium bullet. For now I'm sticking with Partions since I hunt Deer, Elk, and Beer and I think they will perform the best for these 3 species at the velocities and ranges I expect to shoot. I really wish someone would introduce a partition with a ballistic tip. I think that would really hit the mark with accuracy and performance on a wide range of animals. Rapid expansion with the front half to deliver a lot of energy into the game but still some controlled expansion and weight retention with the rear core.
-Power

Offline Duffy

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2003, 07:42:46 PM »
Power, Just  how do the Patitions work on Beer? :)
Just kidding.
 I asked the Nosler rep about the min vel that their bullets needed for expantion and he claims 1700 as the min. He didn't really say yes or no to using the bonded bullets in a handgun as I was asking about my 708 at the time. I'm with you on the BT/Partition combo and that's what I figured the bonded ones to be. I have tried Par and BT in news print and the both penetrate about the same but the Par have a much better wound channel and stay together much better. The BT's as most people know make a mess even at the 2600 fps that I'm testing them at.

Offline Power

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2003, 07:53:57 PM »
LOL! Ya, those cans really explode well with a Partition, boy let me tell you! I get a little off some days typing on these things. Since I spend all day on one by the time I get home my eyes are blurry and my fingers are tired of working on one but I prevail! for the goodness of the members here!!!! :grin:
-Power

Offline Dan Johnson

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Anyone try the new bonded bullets on game?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2003, 08:54:56 AM »
I've been shooting some 200 gr. Accubonds in my 309 JDJ and will likely try them on deer this fall just to see how they do. John Nosler Jr. had some gelatin tests run for me @ 1800 fps and they expanded nicely. Certainly more bullet than needed for southern whitetails but I'd like to shoot something live with them and see how they work.

Dan Johnson

Offline T/C nimrod

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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2003, 10:51:42 AM »
Power - I have this bad habit of analyzing everthing about a picture, please forgive me. On the pic that shows inside the rib cage, what is the hole in the upper right corner from? (just low on the tenderloin) Looks a lot like a broadhead wound, you did a nice job with the field dressing, I can't imagine it's a knife slip.

Offline Power

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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2003, 07:47:28 PM »
LOL! Well... let's just say I was practicing defending myself with my knife in case I ever get attacked by a deer. I wanted to see how hard it was to stab one, both between the ribs.

Good eye though! Would look like a broadhead the way I did it.
-Power