Author Topic: Purported Support for Israel by "Christians" and the Politics of Perpetual War  (Read 1418 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

TM7

  • Guest
...Biblical significance of today's political wars...a clarification...................

Theological basis for Christian support for Israel and a pertpetual war in the end-times is questionable if one considers that New Testment supercedes the OT.... as far as Christians should be concerned:
Conservative Judaeo-Christian support for Israel is based largely on various prophecies about the Jewish people during the "end-times" which they believe are found throughout the Bible. They are viewed as playing a major role in TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it). Some are:

 

 Zechariah's war prophecy:
 Zechariah 12:3: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." (KJV) The implication is that the Jewish people would return to Israel; this happened in 1948 with the creation of the State of Israel. Later, all the nations of the earth will gather against her. Some believe that we are near that point today. But God will make Jerusalem an immovable rock. This came to pass when the Camp David peace talks found that the future status of Jerusalem became a major stumbling block.
 
 Zechariah 12:4-5: "In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God." God is seen as protecting the Jews. He will wipe out the military capacity of the nations that are against Israel.
 
 Zechariah 12:9-10: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."  Many conservative Christians interpret this as saying that Jews will be humbled, will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and become Christians. They believe that "Whom they have pierced" refers to the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman soldier. They will "morn for him as the firstborn Son of God — grieve deeply in recognizing their ancient complicity in his death and the fact that they could have entered the promised land long ago, had they entered by faith, not force."
 
 
Moving forward... Enter the The 24 elders:
 Revelation 4:4: "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Conservative Christians view the 24 as being composed of the patriarchs of each of the twelve ancient tribes of Israel, along with the twelve apostles. To emphasize their unity, they are gathered in a circle around the throne of God. All are believed to be Christians at that time. The number presents a problem. One of the original disciples, Judas, died and was replaced with Matthias. But Paul also considered himself an apostle. That would make a total of thirteen apostles.
 
 The 144,000 sealed virgins:
Revelation 7:3-4 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
 Revelation 14:1-4: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads....These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
 

These passages seem to imply that 144,000 Jewish virgins -- their gender is not mentioned (not just 72 virgins!) -- will convert to Christianity and be "sealed." They will have God's name written on their forehead, and will be followers of the Lamb -- i.e. of Christ. Some Christians interpret these phrases as implying that 144,000 Jews will convert to Christianity and then attempt to convert the remaining Jews in Israel.

The selection of these 144,000 Jews also presents a problem. The passage says that they will come from "all the tribes of the children of Israel" -- that is, from all 12 tribes. The implication is that there would be 12,000 representatives sealed from each of the ancient Hebrew tribes. 

However, the Hebrew Scriptures discuss:

 The invasion of the Assyrians into the Northern Kingdom (Israel) in 722 BCE. Some Jews escaped to the Southern Kingdom, Judah. Most appear to have scattered, or have stayed in the former Israel and assimilated into the new Pagan culture forgoing their religion and converting..many to islam later. 
 The invasion by the Babylonians into the Southern Kingdom, (Judah) in 605 BCE. Most of the Jews escaped to Egypt; others were taken in to exile in Babylon, thus modern jews are the actual immigres to the region , not Palestinians.
 

But during history, ten of the twelve tribes became "lost" and apparently were assimilated into nearby Pagan cultures. 11 Only a remnant of the combined tribes of Judah and Benjamin survived. A sizeable percentage of the lost tribes probably remained in and near modern-day Israel, and are now Palestinians. Their genetic heritage is indistinguishable from that of real semitic Jews. So, if 12,000 representatives are selected from each of the original twelve tribes, then the group might consist mostly of Palestinians. 



Now about the fate of the Jews:
Uri Avnery, is a leader of Gush Shalom, an Israeli peace group. He was discussing the theology of many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians in a 2002-JUN essay, and wrote: "According to its theological beliefs, the Jews must congregate in Palestine and establish a Jewish state on all its territory so as to make the Second Coming of Jesus Christ possible...the evangelists don't like to dwell openly on what comes next: before the coming [of the Messiah], the Jews must convert to Christianity. Those who don't will perish in a gigantic holocaust in the battle of Armageddon. SO, THIS IS BASICALLY AN ANTI-SEMITIC TEACHING. This teaching implies that Jews who remain true to God's covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) will be all exterminated in a massive genocide that may be more numerous than the Holocaust (an you can imagine what jews think of that Christian idea), and then establishes the 12 tribes, Palestinians and others, as the rightful trustees of the Holy Land...that is if you are a Christian...if you're a Judaeo-Christian you would defer to the OT jewish version. John 8:44, etc. clearly states what the Son thought of the old Law, btw.




Think about it...reconciliation Christianity; i.e. Chritianity reconciling with Judaism is not as clear cut as the current Christian sects might have you believe. The Son was assassinated for a reason.

....TM7

..

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
TM7, open your Bible if you have one, and turn to Revelation Chapter 14 and find out EXACTLY whom these 144,000 are, GENDER AND ALL, and find both their heritage, AND THEIR MISSION.
Your Internet fairy tales get farther and farther away from the Scripture. There are too many Christians here to pass your rehtoric off.
I have edited myself, as there was no call for it. I apologize.([/color]
[/i]
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline woodchukhntr

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (108)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359

Think about it...reconciliation Christianity; i.e. Chritianity reconciling with Judaism is not as clear cut as the current Christian sects might have you believe. The Son was assassinated for a reason.

....TM7

..

Yes, the Son was killed for a reason, and the Gentiles (Romans) killed Him so that prophesy would be fulfilled, that the sin of the world would be borne by Him, that He would defeat death so that all who call on His name should have eternal life!

Offline powderman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32823
  • Gender: Male
TM7, Graybeard may delete this post from the thread, and might either give me a stern warning, or ban me from the site BUT!
You are an UNINFORMED, BIBLICALLY UNEDUCATED, BLASPHEMOUS HERETIC!

Any monkey with a third grade education can open his Bible IF HE HAS ONE, and turn to Revelation Chapter 14 and find out EXACTLY whom these 144,000 are, GENDER AND ALL, and find both their heritage, AND THEIR MISSION.
Your Internet fairy tales get farther and farther away from the Scripture. You should try Scientology. You can make the rules up as you go there. There are too many Christians here to pass that gas off.

YOU ARE A LIVING, BREATHING, PRESENT DAY EXAMPLE OF PROVERBS CHAPTER 18   VERSE 6.  >:(


DEE. A big AMEN to that, reckon I'll get banned or warned with you. I'd like to add that satan knows every single word of the Bible and will twist it to his own evil deeds. Reminds me of somebody here. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Quote
Revelation Chapter 14 [/color] and find out EXACTLY whom these 144,000 are, GENDER AND ALL, and find both their heritage, AND THEIR MISSION.

They are of both genders, so you are the one who is mistaken.  They are simply Jews who have not been defiled by religion.  I know this for a fact.  I don't have to guess.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Quote
Revelation Chapter 14 [/color] and find out EXACTLY whom these 144,000 are, GENDER AND ALL, and find both their heritage, AND THEIR MISSION.

They are of both genders, so you are the one who is mistaken.  They are simply Jews who have not been defiled by religion.  I know this for a fact.  I don't have to guess.

This is not the first time you have ignored scripture in favor of your own scripturally perverted opinion. If one will merely read Revelation Chapter 14 it will show what has been distorted clearly. Verse 4 COMPLETELY erases your claim of correctness.[/b][/i]
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Revelation Chapter 14 verse 3 & 4. Verse 3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song, but the HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.
Verse 4. THESE ARE THEY WHICH WERE "NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN;" FOR "THEY ARE VIRGINS". These are "THEY WHICH FOLLOW THE LAMB (CHRIST)" WHITHERSOEVER He GOETH. These "WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN", being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb
.

These are but an EXAMPLE of 1st Timothy Chapter 2 in verse 12, where GOD does not allow WOMEN to preach to men or usurp authority over men.
These 144,000 are to be EVANGILISTS. To ignore is to go AGAINST Scripture.
That is all I have left to say on this matter. The Bible is as plain as a Church Bell on this matter. Anything else is apostasy.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ms

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds like men only. People it's a family feud all other country should stay out of it. But the nwo is evil.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
I'm not guessing.  You just don't understand the Bible.   You are mistaken.  They are not Palestinians or Arabs either.  They are Jews only.  They are scattered all over the planet though.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Those tribes are Jews only.  The rest don't matter a hoot.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
The Old Testament.  Those who come from Esau aren't heirs to the promise. 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Cement Man

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1265
  • Gender: Male
I have to admit this thread goes into issues I have not been exposed to before.  Trying to be open-minded and with a thirst for knowledge, I found most of the original post here:

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-mindcontrol-judeo-christianity-history.html

I looked at the the home site for this article - www.jewwatch.com, and they have links to about every "set of facts" one could imagine.  Even about Elvis, Dwight Eisenhower, Marilyn Monroe.   Wow, some pretty incredible stuff.

I remain skeptical.  Now more than ever.

CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26939
  • Gender: Male
OK so WHAT IS THEIR POLICY? None is given only a list of possible essay subjects. It shows no policy toward for or against any listed. I'm sure you'll likely edit this to add it and then again claim you didn't edit it also.

JUST in case I'll quote you here:

Quote
And this is their policy:

 Essays that we feel exhibit hatred against others on the basis of their gender, race, skin color, sexual orientation, religion, etc. 
 Essays whose primary goal is to attack individuals or groups. 
 Essays which attack religious beliefs other faith groups. However, we will generally accept essays that:  Compare beliefs of two or more religions, or 
 Compare the beliefs of one faith group with scientific findings, or
 Compare and contrast beliefs within a single religion.

Hope this helps...now for the peanut gallery.

So 'splain the policy in that to me.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline ms

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
I have had my post edit and deleted in the past too. I thought about asking you GB or Matt. But thought to leave it alone didn't want problems. But then I thought about it in the past when I really mess up GB tells me so. I know there alot of people that don't like me here. But I like the site.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
It will be a Perpetual War until time is no more.  God said so.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Cement Man

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1265
  • Gender: Male
I have to admit this thread goes into issues I have not been exposed to before.  Trying to be open-minded and with a thirst for knowledge, I found most of the original post here:

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-mindcontrol-judeo-christianity-history.html

I looked at the the home site for this article - www.jewwatch.com, and they have links to about every "set of facts" one could imagine.  Even about Elvis, Dwight Eisenhower, Marilyn Monroe.   Wow, some pretty incredible stuff.

I remain skeptical.  Now more than ever.


.
You got to be careful on the internet as you know. That site you mention seems to be another anti-jewish site indeed. I would avoid it... once I looked over their stuff.
On comparative religion and anti-hate material you will find my reference here:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm

And this is their policy:

 Essays that we feel exhibit hatred against others on the basis of their gender, race, skin color, sexual orientation, religion, etc. 
 Essays whose primary goal is to attack individuals or groups. 
 Essays which attack religious beliefs other faith groups. However, we will generally accept essays that:  Compare beliefs of two or more religions, or 
 Compare the beliefs of one faith group with scientific findings, or
 Compare and contrast beliefs within a single religion.

Hope this helps...now for the peanut gallery.


..TM7
 


I am confused. The body of what you originally posted is on the site I noted - word for word. I posted a link.  Glad to see that you disassociate yourself from sites like that.   

CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
You're so called "perpetual war" will end very soon.  Not by man's hand of course.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26939
  • Gender: Male
To MS and TM7 both. Matt has fixed it now so that no matter who edits a post it shows clearly in the post when and who did it. So if your posts are edited and yes many do get edited as a scan of the Moderator log shows you will at least now know when and by whom.

TM7 you still have not addressed my question to you. What is their policy? What you posted shows only a list but no policy. No I honestly don't care enough to go look it up but if you post saying this is a policy you at least should copy the policy for folks to read. This time you didn't. Typo error? Perhaps but it's incomplete thus worthless to the purpose you posted it as without a stated policy since that is what you posted it to be.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline ms

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
To MS and TM7 both. Matt has fixed it now so that no matter who edits a post it shows clearly in the post when and who did it. So if your posts are edited and yes many do get edited as a scan of the Moderator log shows you will at least now know when and by whom.

TM7 you still have not addressed my question to you. What is their policy? What you posted shows only a list but no policy. No I honestly don't care enough to go look it up but if you post saying this is a policy you at least should copy the policy for folks to read. This time you didn't. Typo error? Perhaps but it's incomplete thus worthless to the purpose you posted it as without a stated policy since that is what you posted it to be.
Thank you GB AND MATT.

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26939
  • Gender: Male
Quote
GB...you can go to their site and pick off any information you want. Personally, I don't have a problem with these people,

Sure I could IF I wished to or cared enough to but I don't. I have no problem with them either as I have no knowledge of them nor do I care to gain any.

BUT you posted what was supposedly a POLICY and yet listed no policy just a list of categories with no statement as to the POLICY regarding them. I called you on it and so far you've still offered no policy just more random babble. I take it you either have no clue what the policy is you say they have or don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand what you posted wasn't policy or really don't care and are merely looking to see how many words you can post that have been copied and pasted.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26939
  • Gender: Male
You're about to piss me off with your arrogance and stupidity. Let me draw you a picture since clearly you cannot read.

Here is what you posted as a policy.

Essays that we feel exhibit hatred against others on the basis of their gender, race, skin color, sexual orientation, religion, etc. 
 Essays whose primary goal is to attack individuals or groups. 
 Essays which attack religious beliefs other faith groups. However, we will generally accept essays that:  Compare beliefs of two or more religions, or 
 Compare the beliefs of one faith group with scientific findings, or
 Compare and contrast beliefs within a single religion.


That is a list NOT a policy. What the hell is the policy regarding them?

Now maybe they are stupid enough they have no policy listed under policy but a list of various essays without saying if those are OK or not OK good or bad accepted or rejected is not a policy.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!