What happened to the 444 Marlin???

[deerhunter1981]

as long as they keep making brass for the trippel4 I don't really care about the factory loads. leverEvolutions will be around as long as marlin keep making 1895's in it so it is not really a great worry

[stoutstuff]

My 1965 microgroove with a 2x7 mueller scope. 3 shots @ 100 yds with Leverevolutions.

[Cabin4]

Over shadowed by the 45-70. They are both offered in the same exact plateform for the same exact price. Its hard to go with the 444 when you can get a 45-70.....

[BBF]

There is a difference in recoil and leaving out the LE ammo there is enough difference in the trajectories of the common factory loads to give it some consideration.


PS. I did go to the Hdy site and had a look at the LE specs for both.

                                       444 Marlin

      Energy  100 yards  2285 ftlb          Trajectory   100 yards   +3"
                  200  "      1606 ftlb                            200 yards  -1.4"
                  300  "      1120 ftlb                            300 yards  -18.6"



                                        45-70 Govt

      Energy   100 yards   2158 ftlb         Trajectory  100 yards  + 3"
                  200   "       1516 ftlb                          200 yards -4.1"
                  300   "       1083 ftlb                          300 yards -27.8"  !!!


      I don't think the .444 Marlin has any reason to hide in shame here.       
                   

[deerhunter1981]

yeah when it comes to factory loads the 45/70 doesn't have much on the .444. I think nostaliga plays a big role in the 45/70's popularity. although the 45/70 is more versatile in that it has a greater bullet selection, there is not much a 405 grain in a 45/70 can do that a 300 grain in a .444 is not up to.

[Cabin4]

There is a difference in recoil and leaving out the LE ammo there is enough difference in the trajectories of the common factory loads to give it some consideration.


PS. I did go to the Hdy site and had a look at the LE specs for both.

                                       444 Marlin

      Energy  100 yards  2285 ftlb          Trajectory   100 yards   +3"
                  200  "      1606 ftlb                            200 yards  -1.4"
                  300  "      1120 ftlb                            300 yards  -18.6"



                                        45-70 Govt

      Energy   100 yards   2158 ftlb         Trajectory  100 yards  + 3"
                  200   "       1516 ftlb                          200 yards -4.1"
                  300   "       1083 ftlb                          300 yards -27.8"  !!!


      I don't think the .444 Marlin has any reason to hide in shame here.       
                   

These ballistics numbers do not represent the capability of the 45-70. In addition, the 45-70 is a true 45 caliber bullet. The 444 is not a true 44 cal. Its .429.

The 45-70 when loaded to its true capability is clearly a better large heavy game killer. While we can argue that the 444 can kill anything a 45-70 can, I would prefer any improved edge when faced with a griz or similar animal.

[Mt_Sourdough]

Both rounds can produce over 3000 ft/ibs at the muzzle.  That is enough power to pummel any animal on this continent including grizzlies.  I sleep on the ground under the stars in the local wilderness areas (Bob Marshal, scape goat, rattlesnake, etc.) that have plenty of those big humpback bears around.  I sleep well with a loaded 444 next to me.  I know I wouldn't sleep any better if the rifle was a 45/70.
  It seems that being a gun buff goes hand in hand with being a fan of history.  So there in lies one of the greatest appeals of the 45/70.  With that said, I think the greatest difference is depending on handloading vs. factory ammo.  I give the 444 the advantage over the 45/70 when you look specifically at factory ammo.  In handloading, the 45/70 has more bullet choices and has greater power potential than does the 444. 
   The original question, though, was "what happened to the 444???".  It seems to me, every time I say 444, I get peoples attention and find nothing but great reverence for the round.  I think, IMHO, what will hurt the 444 down the road will be new rounds like the 338 ME and possibly a possibility of a new 35 something ME.  There is definitely a resurgence of lever guns, but how the deck gets shuffled is hard to predict.  I know the 45/70 is definitely going to remain popular, that's a given.  What happened to the 450?

[BBF]

I copied the Hdy numbers because those loads are the flattest trajectories that can be achieved with either calibers at present. Once the LE bullets are available to the handloader I presume some will push the V's

In reply to what happened to the 450 Marlin I would guess that folks got tired of being mauled from the recoil. The same level or higher recoil can be achieved with a modern top load 45-70. If that doesn't fix your appetite for pain, may I suggest a .458 Win Mag and it can go beyond that as well. Some of you guys load and shoot top 45-70's but there are probably more that don't.

[SharonAnne]

as to the 450 Marlin, it is still in the Marlin lever action line up and Steyr has added it to its' bolt action line up.

[Marlin_444]

Mine just got out of rehab, "Black Betty" get's around, I think I traded her three times and bought'n sold her twice...  I probably have about $1,800 in her today with all the tinkering I have done with her...  She does not like the new LeverEvolution Jelly Tips, I prolly aughta reload but does best with "Standard" tailor mades off the shelf - Remington .240 FNSP's...  I had her out on the last day of Deer Season this year and I popped a "Oops" Button Buck at between 140 - 150 yards right in the Pump Station which ran maybe 75 yards, nice blood trail...  Did not get a pic of the deer...



Works she has had done -

- Ported her 22" Standard Barrel
- Stripped and Black Tacky Refinished
- Sims fitted recoil pad
- Western Loop Wide Lever
- Sonic Blast cleaning inside and out
- Gray Parkerized Metal Refinish
- Topped with a Simmons Whitetal Classic 1.5-5x20 WA, Granite Black matchs wood refinish to the "T"...

I love this gun, she dropped my two biggest deer (9 and 11 points respectively), one with Iron sights and the other with a bulky Bushnell on her.  The 20mm bell on the Simmons seems to fit her best!

Ron

[EsoxLucius]

There is a difference in recoil and leaving out the LE ammo there is enough difference in the trajectories of the common factory loads to give it some consideration.


PS. I did go to the Hdy site and had a look at the LE specs for both.

                                       444 Marlin

      Energy  100 yards  2285 ftlb          Trajectory   100 yards   +3"
                  200  "      1606 ftlb                            200 yards  -1.4"
                  300  "      1120 ftlb                            300 yards  -18.6"



                                        45-70 Govt

      Energy   100 yards   2158 ftlb         Trajectory  100 yards  + 3"
                  200   "       1516 ftlb                          200 yards -4.1"
                  300   "       1083 ftlb                          300 yards -27.8"  !!!


      I don't think the .444 Marlin has any reason to hide in shame here.       
                   

Buffalo Bore loads the 300 grain Speer UniCor hollow point to 2350 fps in the 45-70.  Not much difference in trajectory.

                                        45-70 Govt

      Energy   100 yards   2544 ftlb         Trajectory   100 yards  + 3"
                  200   "       1719 ftlb                          200 yards -1.75"
                  300   "       1170 ftlb                          300 yards -20.1" 


Now that the LEVERevolution bullets are available as components the 45-70 can be reloaded with them.

                                        45-70 Govt

      Energy   100 yards   2569 ftlb         Trajectory   100 yards  + 3"
                  200   "       1813 ftlb                          200 yards -2.2"
                  300   "       1278 ftlb                          300 yards -21.3" 

Not much difference in trajectory, significant difference in power.


If Hornady made a LEVERevolution bullet for the 45-70 that had a similar sectional density as the 265 grain bullet for the 444 Marlin, such as a .458" 300 grain LEVERevolution bullet, when loaded to their potential, you would see similar trajectories and significantly more power with the 45-70.

I wouldn't say either the 444 Marlin or the 45-70 Gov't are better than one another, they're just different.  No animal well hit with either the 444 Marlin or 45-70 Gov't with an appropriate bullet from an appropriate load will know the difference.

Both the 444 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't are alive and well.  I can't wait to get a 444 Marlin again.

[quickdtoo]

I copied the Hdy numbers because those loads are the flattest trajectories that can be achieved with either calibers at present. Once the LE bullets are available to the handloader I presume some will push the V's

In reply to what happened to the 450 Marlin I would guess that folks got tired of being mauled from the recoil. The same level or higher recoil can be achieved with a modern top load 45-70. If that doesn't fix your appetite for pain, may I suggest a .458 Win Mag and it can go beyond that as well. Some of you guys load and shoot top 45-70's but there are probably more that don't.

Don't expect great terminal performance from the 325gr .458" FTX much above factory ammo velocity, even in Hornady's 450 Marlin factory ammo they only rate it at 2225fps, and 45-70 data for the FTX only goes to 2150fps and for good reason, see the tests Jerryko made with the FTX in a 45-70.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=82750

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,164522.msg1098744891.html#msg1098744891

Cabin4, rifle bullets for the .444 are .430", that would include the 265gr FTX. https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=34d70229a0b2b73902517b3b5cc5d3c1&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=b4ac225063c81103887cf10c6d0bc204


http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=789

Tim

[Redtail1949]

You have to admit that Marlin with Hornady have really brought new life to the lever guns. To many that are not really into loading and shooting the, lever guns were something to laugh at.

Now with the advertising and print articles that abound many are taking a second look. The Hornady loads if they will shoot well in your gun give a real boost to these old war horses.

The new chamberings really make the lever guns shine. As was mentioned before, its the feeling you get when you carry one, it takes you back in time when things were much simpler as well as much harder.

No sir, these guns in .444, .45-.70, .30.30 or any of the new chamberings will be taking game for many years to come.

[BBF]

I agree that the pointy bullets from Hdy have increased the usefullness of those cartridges. Mulling this over for some time I came to the opinion that in the majority of the hunting situation, that extra range isn't really needed judging by the posts here.

 Most distances for WT's seem to be in the 100 yard range give or take some most of the time. If you are happy with the pointy stuff, good for you, if your rifle doesn't like it, so be it, those cartridges with their FN/RN bullets have taken lots of game over the years and will keep doing so.

[EsoxLucius]

Consider that those "pointy bullets" only provide 30 to 40 feet of increased effective range with most calibers.