« previous next »
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: IMR 4759 in ML  (Read 2317 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HuntHard

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 33
IMR 4759 in ML
« on: January 05, 2009, 08:57:34 AM »
Has anyone tried smokless IMR 4759 in there inline? I hear it is the ticket I have heard of ppl shooting 4227 and that is a no no. But I have heard that 4759 doesn't make near the pressure that 4227 does and it is so much cleaner than black powder. Any ideas would be nice. I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.
Logged

Offline Keith Lewis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 12:39:44 PM »
I think you will likely get few results from this. Any smokeless powder in a rifle not designed for smokeless is just asking for trouble. Besides being potentially dangerous it definately would cancel out any warantee claim from damage. I know there are people that suggest this but there are also people that take drugs and drink too much.
Logged

Offline alsaqr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2009, 01:22:42 PM »
Quote
I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.


An Encore is not constructed to fire smokeless powder and TC warns against it.  Do it at your own risk.   
Logged

Offline Semisane

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 05:25:30 PM »
Hey HuntHard, I've often wondered the same thing myself - as I'm sure others have.

But its a 

 

I suspect there are a few smokeless powders that "could" be used in modern in-lines with the proper controls.  But manufacturers would be crazy to talk about it.  I've seen enough questions and confusion about powder and pellets on these forums to understand why.  Add in a little confusion over volume vs. weight and the worms really start coming out of the can.  For example, an accidental double charge of Pyrodex or Triple Seven will make a BIG boom and may hurt your shoulder or give you scope nose, but it's not likely to blow up your gun.  A double charge of smokeless may well do so. 

If you go to Hodgdon's reloading data center ( http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp ) and select Rifle in the "Load Type" box and select 45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)* in the "Cartridge" box, you will find a lot of low pressure smokeless loads.  I'd guess the trapdoor rifle is a lot weaker than modern in-line muzzle loaders and that some - if not all - of those "starting loads" would be OK in an in-line.   But I wouldn't try any of them without a LONG string between me and the trigger.   Then too, beyond pressure there's the issue of the different way black powder and its subs build pressure, as opposed to the way smokeless does - the "pressure curve".  I don't know what it is or how it would come into play, but I know it's there.   :-\  Even the Savage rifle is limited to certain powders.

Anyway, I would love to see the manufactures put some loading data out there.  But they never will.
Logged
CLICK ON ME: .
Link to... highchairstands@cox.net

Offline Hammerspur

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2009, 11:47:58 PM »
I saw this question last night but held off on stepping in until now.

I too suppose that it is practically possible with a good strong modern inline...IF an appropriate powder is chosen and all charges are scale weighed.

I checked the burn rate of 4759 in the chart on this page: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Seems in the ballpark for what I've read about true smokeless muzzleloaders.

The old standard formula for loading smokeless in black powder cartridge rifles (most of which are probably not as strong as today's inlines) is IMR 4198 @ 40% of black powder load.

Like Semisane, I might want to keep that long string handy too!   :-\
Logged
Steve
Quote
Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline Hairtrigger

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2010
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 12:50:54 AM »
Quote from: Hammerspur on January 05, 2009, 11:47:58 PM
I The old standard formula for loading smokeless in black powder cartridge rifles (most of which are probably not as strong as today's inlines) is IMR 4198 @ 40% of black powder load.

 

Interesting ... 4198 is in the middle of the burn rate chart.
Logged

Offline Keith Lewis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 08:44:24 AM »
I use Accurate 8700 in my 40-65 Rolling Block but it was a 7X57 action with a brand new Badger barrel. It performs very close to black powder including filling the case to the top just like black powder and in that cartridge gun it will also make some fouling in the barrel but nothing like black powder. I have several muzzleloaders including a White Thunderbolt which I have heard rumors of those shooting smokeless; but with the selection of real muzzleloading powders available I just cannot talk myself into taking that kind of chance. Even if you managed to get the rifle to shoot once with a long string and no damage what is the chance that the second or third shot will create a disaster???? Just not worth the chance!!!!! If you really want to shoot smokeless then get a rifle designed specifically for it.
Logged

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 08:59:46 AM »
I'd do exactly whatever the manual that comes with the rifle says.  I once saw a Ruger Super Black that had over 200 really heavy charges of Bulls Eye fired in it.  To it's credit, it held up just fine until it blew all to pieces.
Logged
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline TRM-1

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 12:25:51 PM »
If you want to shoot smokeless with a encore get a smokeless barrel.      www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com
Logged

Offline 12ptdroptine

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 02:09:21 PM »
There is a reason these manufacturer's warn against use of smokeless powder. It might be more than your gun you blow up...Like was said earlier..they might function just fine ..until the stress finally cause's failure. Then what..and who might be the one shooting it when it doe's? Your child? friend? It isnt worth the risk. I did some research and bought a smokeless one. There are barrel mfg's out there. Be Safe Drop
Logged

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 02:53:00 PM »
Has anyone here actually seen a recommended compressed load of 4759 in any reloading manual???

I doubt it.

That's what you're doing by seating a projectile on the powder in a muzzleloader.
Logged
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 02:16:16 AM »
You want to shoot smokeless, BUY A SAVAGE.
Logged
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline AlbanyCO

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 130
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 06:46:37 PM »
Shrapnel hurts.
Logged
If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. -George S. Patton

Offline Hammerspur

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 12:25:51 AM »
Logged
Steve
Quote
Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline TRM-1

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 11:33:31 AM »
Logged

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26944
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 02:28:20 AM »
A great danger exists when messing around with IMR 4759. That danger is IMR 4756.

That one little number at the end of both often seems to be ignored and the rest of it all that is looked at. These two are NOT the same powder and do not have the same burn rate. Data for them often gets confused some times even in reputable loading manuals.

For that reason it is very important no matter the application to be 100% certain which powder the data is really for and that it is the powder you actually have in hand.

Then too some times folks use powders that are totally inappropriate for the task at hand such as using smokeless powder in rifles designed for use with BLACK POWDER only.
Logged


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Doug B.

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Still A Kid At Heart - 1971 Honda CT70H
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 03:44:55 AM »
I will play it safe and use the powder that was intended for my H & R in-line. My wife and kids still need a husband/dad. 
Logged
"Be A Good Listener. Your Ears Will Never Get You In Trouble"

Cadott/Chippewa Falls, WI

Offline Lane

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 08:12:12 AM »
Quote from: HuntHard on January 05, 2009, 08:57:34 AM
Has anyone tried smokless IMR 4759 in there inline? I hear it is the ticket I have heard of ppl shooting 4227 and that is a no no. But I have heard that 4759 doesn't make near the pressure that 4227 does and it is so much cleaner than black powder. Any ideas would be nice. I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.

With the advent of BlackHorn 209, there is no need to chance smokeless powder in your muzzleloader ;)

http://blackhorn209.com/

Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »