Author Topic: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?  (Read 3535 times)

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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »
do a search on youtube for Super Colibris, they have a snippet of a guy shooting them out of a Henry rifle, among other guns. The title has Henry rifle in it...good luck and enjoy yourself with them, they are FUN!!! And they are plenty powerful enough to take gray squirrels and crows out to about 15-20 yards (max) using head shots, but a good solid chest shot on a squirrel will work as well, especially if he is standing up and looking at you....<><....:) 
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Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2009, 05:18:36 PM »
I'll have to do that in the morning, I'm gettin' pretty tired now!

Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2009, 02:17:43 AM »
MSP Retired,

thank you for your research on the power difference between rounds. It is much more clear to me now.

Per chance, do you get that from one site? Or does anyone here know if there is such a site, with charts?

Chuck Hawks site has good charts, comparing various rounds, such as .22, 30-30, 30-06, etc; but I have not yet seen one comparing 22's only.


Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 02:28:09 AM »
Your welcome, and yes, I did get most of that info from one site. I will try to locate it again and post it for you. I just did a Goggle search and came up with a bunch of retailers who were selling different ammo and one of them had that info all listed for what it was selling...I did have to go to Google again for the info on the regular Colibris because the first retailer did not offer those only the Super Colibris were available through him. There are 2 Aquila sites, one is down, "Under Construction" (and has been that way for over a year now) but I found another with info on it. Google is a great thing!!!....<><....:)

P.S. - if it were me I think for rabbits in the location you described I would try .22 Short, standard velocity, hollow points, and try for head shots, but a good solid chest (heart lung) shot should work as well....good luck....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline MISSEDSHOT

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2009, 09:53:14 AM »
One more round to add to the pot, Remington is now making a CB Long rifle,it is labeled as low-noise/sub-sonic.They are a little faster than the CCI Cbs.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2009, 11:44:46 AM »
Here are some sites to go to to check on velocities of Aquila ammo and some others.

I am interested in the 12 Gauge Mini Slug loads!!!

www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2008/08/aguila-super-colibri-vs-cci-cb-long.html

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAEyfv46N0Q

and this one which may the best for comparitive info and which I got much of the info for the first response from. Just click on the brand (left side) you want info on:

www.22ammo.com/aquila.html

good reading and enjoy. I really want to get some of the short 12 gauge slug loads and buckshot loads!!!
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2009, 11:47:11 AM »
They are a really hot little number!!  Man you can get a BUNCH of them in an extended tube too!! ::) :o ;D

CW
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2009, 11:52:46 AM »
CW, if you are referring to the Mini-Slugs and/or Mini Buckshot rounds that is exactly what I was thinking, either the slugs, or the buckshot (imagine the Mini Buickshot in a HD magazine gun, a nice 870 pump perhaps?), especially for a woman or smaller statured male or older person, great with the lessened recoil and increased number of rounds available. Heck if they are accurate I'll bet they would be great foor deer in a 12 gauge smoothbore out to 50 yards or so, and thats further than you can usually see in the thick woods that I hunt. Now, because I live in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Massachusetts I cannot buy them through the mail. Oh well, another call to my friend out of state...<><.... ;)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2009, 12:03:05 PM »
That is exactly what I was thinking, either the slugs, or the buckshot for a HD magazine gun, especially for a woman or smaller statured male or older person, great with the lessened recoil....<><....:)

 Exactamundo!! ::) :o ;D :D

 Momma likes shooting them from the hip too!!  :D :D :D

CW
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2009, 12:14:06 PM »
CW, if you have any expierence with either the 12 gauge Mini Buckshot or the Mini Slugs (the slugs are on sale too!!) what are some of your opinions on them? Do you think the slugs would work for 20-30 yard shots on deer if placed correctly". I was thinking of perhaps out of a tree stand or gound blind, up close and person in the thick greengrowth of the Maine swaps I hunt in a lot of the time. The 12 gauge Mini Slug is listed as just under an ounce (25 gram's, with 28 grams being an ounce) and at 1250 fps, a formidable load it seems by the numbers....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2009, 12:31:54 PM »
CW, if you have any expierence with either the 12 gauge Mini Buckshot or the Mini Slugs (the slugs are on sale too!!) what are some of your opinions on them? Do you think the slugs would work for 20-30 yard shots on deer if placed correctly". I was thinking of perhaps out of a tree stand or gound blind, up close and person in the thick greengrowth of the Maine swaps I hunt in a lot of the time. The 12 gauge Mini Slug is listed as just under an ounce (25 gram's, with 28 grams being an ounce) and at 1250 fps, a formidable load it seems by the numbers....<><....:)
Limited to your cryteria, yes I think they would work just fime. But keep that range short as they will no doubt shed velocity/energy very quickly.

 My purposes for them are for the two legged varmints. ::) :o ;D

CW
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2009, 01:34:23 PM »
Yes, I was really thinking of the Mini Buckshot loads for that application...less penetration and a lot of OUCH at the receiving end. It looks like they are a duplex load with different choices of buckshot and birdshot in the same shell. I can only imagine what a great home defense gun my 870 18" barrel pump 12 gauge would be when loaded to the brim with as many Mini loads as I could fit into the magazine. I envision loading up about 3 loads of Mini Buckshot followed by 3 or 4 Mini Slugs....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2009, 02:59:12 PM »
But how do they cycle?  I'd make sure you can get them to cycle 100% before I bought a bunch of them and depended on them for self defense.  You can get reduced recoil buckshot from Federal and I think Remington.

Offline MISSEDSHOT

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2009, 03:14:03 PM »
You guys may or may not know this but the Wichester 1300 is the only gun that will reliably cycle the mini-shells without modification.Google.Not 870,not 500 or its' brothers.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2009, 03:47:56 PM »
Thanks for that info. I just so happen to have a nice Winchester 1300 in addition to my 870. My son used the 1300 for duck and goose hunting with great effect as well as the occasional round of trap when he was younger. I used my 870 Mag since I was issued an 870 for duty and was used to it. The 1300 still resides in my gunlocker although I think it is really his, since I "gave" it to him 20 years ago or so. It also has an extended magazine tube which I picked up years later and put on. It should hold about a dozen or so of those Mini 12's. How long are those Aquila  Mini 12 shells anyway? By the way the site I posted was "out of stock" on both the slugs and the buckshot loads, anyone know who may have then in stock?....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Keith L

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2009, 06:42:10 PM »
Your site said 1 3/4 inch.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2009, 03:44:00 AM »
Thanks, I was in a rush to get the info out to the others and did not get a chance to read it all over at first but saw it later....<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2009, 11:03:05 AM »
You guys may or may not know this but the Winchester 1300 is the only gun that will reliably cycle the mini-shells without modification.Google.Not 870,not 500 or its' brothers.

 Good point and something everyone needs to consider. Same for all defensive guns. All mags all ammo should be checked for 100% reliability.

 BTW, both of my 870's cycle them just fine... ;D BUT, I will add.. None are exactly stock.  ::) ::) ;D  One is a scattergun tech gun and the other is my own, based on what I needed and what I like from the other two.
The 870 is THE defensive shotgun all others strive to be. (Ol' Winchester '97 was a damn good one too!) Its like they say, the best or truest from of flattery is duplication.

CW
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2009, 04:22:05 PM »
OK, to answer the questions on 22s - No, subsonics do not ricochet any more than high speeds.  A ricochet is a 'glancing' off something, and when your bullets ricochet they have glanced off something.  Sometimes you hear it 'whine' away and that's caused by the flight of the bullet post impact, but most often you do not hear a bullet ricochet. 

It does not matter if the bullet is a bb, cb, 22 short std vel or high speed, hp or rn, 22long or 22 long rifle in any velocity range or bullet configuration - if your bullet hits the target in such a way as to 'glance' off, it will ricochet.  When ya don't get a ricochet is when the bullet imbeds in the target or passes through (that's a pass through, not a ricochet). 

The area you hunt in sounds fabulous for furry critters and with the nearest house 500 meters distant you should not have a concern about ricochets creating a danger to your neighbor's homes.  Understand please that a ricochet of one object glancing off another is not the same as a beam of light reflecting off a polished or mirrored flat surface; with light, the angle of incidence (approach) equals the angle of reflection and may even be brighter.  A bullet that ricochets off a object, say a tree trunk or branch, has already spent most of its energy on impact and has lost both its direction and trajectory.  It will not travel very far at all.  You can skip a 22 slug (round nose works best) off a smooth pond and have it hit again within about 25m, and that's it for the slug, period.  Almost a typical ricochet.  Not much of an effect, really.  But to think of one of your ricochets traveling 500m and strike a neighbors house - no.  Thank you very much for the concern and for being so neighborly but I doubt you need worry. 

Can you shoot any of the shorter 22 rounds through a 22lr bolt action - sure, although you may have to load them single shot and then clean the chamber after you shoot the shorties to make sure a lr chambers properly but yes you can, it is a lot of fun.....

A subsonic 22lr is a rilfe cartridge and it will killya, period.  It ain't no pellet gun son.  You can get some whoppin' powerful big bore pellet rifles but a 22lr is a rifle cartridge and dangerous to over 1 mile.  I have taken predatory wildfowl with 22 subsonics at distances to 135m and coyotes at near the same.  Subsonic 22lrs were designed with a purpose in mind and it wasn't keeping the neighbor hood quiet and not disturbing your neighbors whilst you are laying waste to the local ground squirrel population.  FYI - you can do just as well with 22lr standard velocity in many instances as with the subsonics - same weight bullet and same velocity (below speed of sound) in most instances - and many forget that the standard velocity was the original target round before they had to develop new ones.

Regarding your charting of cartridge power - yeah, that's pretty accurate.  Most ammo companies don't measure impact energy at distances with something like a ballistic pendulum, they figure it out with a computer program that calculates this, that and the other thing but often fails to consider the effect of the impact of a properly designed bullet at or near the end of its trajectory.  They may state that the bullet will only have 'x' amount of velocity/energy based on the initial velocity but they don't usually take into consideration that it may take only a small amount of residual energy to cause considerable damage or even death. I'm not talking of shooting a bullet straight into the air and measuring the effect on the way down as the bullet yaws and tumbles, I mean a 'missed' shot trajectory that might peak at 2-300' elevation or better and maintains its stability.  As that slug starts its trajectory of descent it maintains or possibly gathers energy when combined with the force of gravity.  It is not as much as it was at the muzzle but it can ouch ya seriously or kill. 

If you're shootin' a ground squirrels or chipmunks or other vermin when they are near rocks or stumps or the like I do not believe you should be as concerned as you are over other ricochets toward your neighbors homes.  However, there is some danger for you - a ricochet off a flexible object may send the slug right back in your direction - you can hear those go 'flup', flup' 'flupping' by.

You can test this out yourself to see how much some of your slugs ricochet - use some flat rocks off which you can angle your shots into some dirt and you should discover that your slugs do not ricochet either a great distance or with great force.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2009, 02:03:53 AM »
Thank you for that in-depth response, Mikey.

Good point about ricochet. Maybe I should have asked "If/when the slug does ricochet, how much energy would it retain, and how much danger would it pose to houses in the vicinity?"

Using this, you could compare the potential retained energies of 22. standard vs subsonic rounds. But I imagine it would be would difficult if not impossible to measure.

Either way, it's scary. I was shooting recently at an unofficial range in a long, rocky, mountain canyon. Other shooters were about 1/8 away, I could see them. They were shooting against a rocky hill backstop, safe by most standards.

As I was setting up, I heard a ricochet that came into my area. It probably was a centerfire. Too close, I wanted to put on a flack jacket. But fortunately I only heard one, in a span of two hours.

But I do feel a lot better about shooting subsonics in this area, and maybe 22 shorts (but for the noise). I definitely do not want to attract attention to myself in this area.

Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2009, 02:05:20 AM »
MSP Retired,

thank you for those links. I will check them out when I have time.

Kernman

Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2009, 02:12:52 AM »
Clarification:

I do not target shoot where those guys were shooting, too much threat of ricochet toward the shooter. But nearly nil to a bystander down the canyon.

I would shoot subsonics in the area with rabbits, which is far from the target range. This area is a small valley with Jeffrey pines broken by small clearings. Far as I know there aren't may rocks - at least not visible. Maybe I'll take a shovel and check it out.

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2009, 08:35:10 AM »
You can't buy the regular colibris in the US anymore only the supers. They where not made to shoot out of rifles and to many people where useing them in rifles and getting them stuck in the barrlles( not enuff power to clear) and creating unsafe conditions so they stopped importinf them. The supers are ment for rifle use. 8)
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Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:34 AM »
I may have already asked this:

I wanted to get the bolt action marlin model that fires shorts, longs, and long rifle. Will subsonics work in any/all of these?

Also, did I hear someone say you can fire some types of .22 rimfire ammo in some 22 magnum receivers? That would be the ultimate 22 rifle, IMHO. It would be like the 357/38 special in terms of versatility.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2009, 05:47:29 AM »
MOST 22 subsonics are LONG RIFLES, just loaded to lower velocities. so YEA they will fire in any 22LR chambered firearm. But know that they may NOT FUNTION, that firearm...

 No it is NOT SAFE to fire 22S,L or LR ammo in a 22WMR OR 22MAG chambered firearm.

CW
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Offline kernman

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2009, 02:34:46 AM »
Good to know that subsonics can be used in most 22s (although they might need to be manually fed).

Too bad it's not safe to fire regular 22s in 22 magnums. That would be the ultimate in versatility, and would probably make the ultimate survival weapon, for me at least.

Anyway, with the costs of guns these days I want to make sure that each new weapon (about one every two years these days) is highly versatile.
 
Just seems like somehow they should be able to reduce 22 magnum velocities to regular 22 performance. Especially since the bullets are the same diameter. Maybe they already do?

But I guess you can't have it all.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 07:18:47 AM »
For what you are looking for try looking into the .22 WRF....22 Mag dimensions with just a bit more power than a .22 LR.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_48/ai_87413411

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Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: Do subsonic rounds richochet less?
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2009, 03:40:30 PM »


   If you are looking for a bolt action .22 to shoot S,L, and LR ammo in I'd say to look at a Marlin 81TS. My son has one and it has been most dependable. I have a Marlin 39AS but it's over twice the money of the 81TS and it's also a levergun.

  The best thing I like about the 39AS is that with it's long 24" barrel .22 shorts are just about silent. When I'm shooting it I can hear the hammer drop. The bullet impact is actually louder than the muzzle blast.

  I have in case of emergency shot a .22 LR in a .22 Mag but only in break open guns. The first time I did it was when I had a Savage M24 .22 Mag over a 20 ga. I had fired my last .22 mag when I came upon a feral dog that needed to be shot. I did have a couple of .LR's in the truck so I stuck one in the chamber. The rounds went off just fine but the cases did swell and split at the case mouth. I also tried it to see if it would work with a .22 Mag Hi Standard derringer that I have. I ended up with the same results as the first time. I don't think I'd try that in anything other than a break open gun though and I wouldn't make a habit of it.
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