Author Topic: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?  (Read 1753 times)

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Offline Handgun Hunter

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30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« on: January 13, 2009, 12:43:34 PM »
Hi People.

     I have a project that my son and I were going to tackle and have some questions you all might help me with.

1, Have any of you loaded either one of these and chronographed the loads? If so, what were your results? I came across these rounds in my Cartrages of the World and there seems to be a big difference between case volume and the velocities they are claiming, unless the Gibbs data was taken in a 36" barrel.

2, Because both of these rounds are a pushed shoulder design, can I just get 35 Wellen brass and create a false shoulder to headspace and fire form brass?

     We have a Rem. 700 BDL 30-06 that we would have rebarreled and correctly headspaced and go from there, but I need to know which chamber would be the best as I know no one who know anything about either of them. I am not trying to create a 300 mag. just thought it would be an affordable project that my son and I could do together. I am pretty sure I want a 26" barrel and think this should add about 200-250fps. from the standard 22" factory 30-06. What are your thoughts?

                                   Thanks for your time, Tim.
Tim. " The fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living "

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 02:21:14 AM »
I believe the JDJ gives the absolute maximum case capacity that can be had from the '06 case. That's kinda what JD does. He also offers good tested data for his rounds using modern powders and modern test methods unlike the old data using old powders for the Gibbs.

In the real world I don't think there is enough difference in case capacity that if loaded to the same pressure levels there would be 20 fps difference in outcome. There is far more difference than that between any two barrels even if made by the same folks and came off the line one after the other. So for all practical purposes call them twins.

The benefit in my mind to the JDJ is SSK has good reliable data to back it up and provides the dies as well and all data is worked up in modern times using powders you can buy now that are the same as were used in data work up.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Lone Star

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 03:23:20 PM »
Quote
...I am pretty sure I want a 26" barrel and think this should add about 200-250fps. from the standard 22" factory 30-06. What are your thoughts?

The difference between a 22" and 26" barrel is far less than that. 

From G&A, November 1981 and Rifleshootermag Sept/Oct 2002:

Cartridge......bullet.....26"....24"....22"
.30-06..........165.....2896..2850..2820 fps...76 fps gain
.300 WinMag.180.....3031..3003..2960 fps...71 fps gain

Choose the barrel length that you like, don't worry about velocity loss or gain.   Going to the improved chamber could add between 100 and 200 fps if loaded to the same pressures as the .30-06.  Therein lies the rub with wildcats.....

...Gibbs' data was tested in normal length barrels, but he loaded to excessive pressures.  His test procedure was to use the strongest cases he could find, then keep increasing the load until the primer pockets expanded....then drop back two grains.  Modern testing shows that this technique could result in pressures up to 80,000 psi on an Oehler M43.  No wonder he got magic velocities out of such a small case.




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Offline Handgun Hunter

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 06:26:46 AM »
     Thanks Graybeard, that is sort of what I was looking for as case capacity with either of these has to be close. You are right, JDJ will have the latest data with the latest powders and take a lot of the workup out of finding a good load.

     Thank you Lone Star. I knew something was wrong here when the posted loads from Gibbs' cartrage was giveing over 4000fpe. from an 06 case. The velocities were about the same or better that 300 Win Mag. and thats either wishfull thinking or way in the danger zone.

     When I get ready this spring, I will call Jones and see what we can do. Thanks again guys, Tim.
Tim. " The fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living "

Offline crash87

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 04:16:52 AM »
H.H., In the Feb '06 issue of shooting times, ( a rag I no longer buy, but kept this issue for that article) Rick "the traitor" Jamison did a test comparing the "06, the '06 AI, and the 30 Gibbs. He loaded all rounds to the "SAME" pressures and clocked there speed.

                        30-06                         30 Gibbs            Difference
Nosler 150gr       2900fps                      2985fps                85fps
Sierra 165gr       2758fps                      2847fps                 89fps
Hornady 180gr    2596fps                      2733fps                 137fps
Speer 200gr       2494fps                      2597fps                 103fps

With the AI falling in between. All of these from a 22" barrel. It's also interesting, to me that The Nosler manual list 1 load to almost 3000 fps with a 180 gr. (62gr RL22@ 2985fps/24"barrel) If I knew I could get that out of an '06 I wouldn't have bought a 300 mag. But I have no way of knowing I would unless I spent the $$ to find out. What all this means, to me at least, is you won't know what you get until you chamber a rifle, handgun etc. and try it yourself. For what it's worth, while the Cartridges of the World is a good read it is not in my opinion a loading manual. A good reference, but that is about all. good shootn' CRASH87

Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 11:41:09 AM »
For me, it is fun to have a "wildcat" cartridge, as it is one of those things not everyone and his kid has.

However, if your after real velocity gains, move up from, for example, 30/06 to 300 Win. Mag.

Reason, well the velocity gains in at least the A.I. or Gibbs cartridges are not really that good when cost is factored in.

If on the other hand you want the fun and the difference of the wildcat, go for it!

I do not know about the JDJ cartridge, but both the A.I. "improved" and Rocky Gibbs "wildcats" can be chambered in your standard barrel as long as it is in good condition. 06 to 06A.I. or 06 to 30 Gibbs.

All it needs is a good gunsmith to do a PROPER and CORRECT job of reaming your factory chamber.


On the 30 Gibbs I had, - cut on a tang safety model, RUGER 77 - , the gunsmith - incorrectly - cut an overly long chamber, which since I was already into the forming thing to make brass was no big thing.

In fact, I ended up with a slight bit more powder capacity then with the "normal" 30 Gibbs.

If on the other hand, it had been an Ackely "improved chamber" he improperly cut, it could have been an issue, because of the added steps for forming brass which would have then been required.

Remember, on a properly cut chamber for "improved" cartridges such as the P.O. Ackely line of improved cartridges, the chamber is reamed only to the point where a factory cartridge or factory spec reload barely allows the bolt to close on the loaded round.

This could be said to be a very slight "crush fit".

This allows for factory or factory spec ammo to fire formed with full pressure loads. In goes the factory load, bang, out comes an "improved" case.

On the 30 Gibbs cartridge, this is NOT and "improved" cartridge, but rather a "wildcat" and therefore requires additional steps for forming brass.

AS you probably know, a rifle is not a rifle, is not a rifle, meaning each rifle is a subject unto itself.

Seldom do two rifles of the same caliber and barrel length shoot the same ammo equally well and/or create the same velocity when fired.

So with that, the Ruger 77 - 06 which I had rechambered, was what I call a "slow" rifle. Meaning it didn't shoot to velocities close to book figures, but rather was always on the slow side.

When changed to a Gibbs, I did realize a velocity gain over THAT RIFLES standard chamber, but it was then no better then a "fast" standard 30/06.

Would I do another "wildcat"?  Sure, why not?  They are great fun and as stated something different, just not a great and cost effective way to increase the velocity figures.

AS stated in some of the earlier posts, the horror stories of Rocky Gibbs and the pressures he had to be creating were, at one time, wide spread.

Especially in my area, as Rocky resided about 45minutes drive from where I live.  Seems I recall stories about Rocky doing some testing at the Speer factory which is also close by, and the Speer techs not being willing to stay in the room while he shot his loads.

Still, all in all the wildcat and improved cartridges are great fun and look very cool to boot.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

300 Winmag

Offline roper

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Re: 30 Gibbs, 30-06 JDJ?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 05:42:23 PM »
I used the Nosler 280AI case and necked it up to 30 cal with 2/3grs over max load for the 30-06 using IMR-4350,R-19,
H-4350 and 165gr bullets 3200fps was easy it had 26" Shilen barrel.  I had a acouple 30-06 build one had a 25" Bartlein barrel with max load  of 60gr-IMR-4350 and 165gr bullet @ 3066fps I used the same load in a Lilja 26" barrel @ 3105fps with a 180gr partition same load there was less than 10fps difference between rifles.  SAAMI spec on pressure for the 30-06 is only 60K vs 65K for the 270 and if you could go up 1 to 1.5gr more powder and the right barrel 3000fps is possible with 180gr bullets. 

I learned something interest with the 30x280AI with a max load of  60gr/IMR-4350 and 165gr bullet I got 3074fps so the 2gr more of powder gave 74fps increase.

One thing most don't understand when I post what my velocity is I get to select who's barrel I want to use, barrel twist,contour,rifling also bore/groove dia and how it's going to be throated.

There is one good article on the 30 Gibbs in Wildcat Cartridge vol II on page 803 it refers back to testing Jack O'Connor did 1956 at Speer's laboratory with the 30 Gibbs.  Gibbs design the case to hold base of neck 67gr/IMR-4350  for max performance and P.O. Ackley did the 30-06AI using 65gr/IMR-4350.