Author Topic: energy transfer??  (Read 895 times)

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Offline Dinny

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energy transfer??
« on: April 09, 2009, 09:31:45 AM »
Mr. Smith,
  What cast bullets would you suggest I load in my .45LC for deer hunting?  I have used a LBT hardcast bullet in the past and it just passed through without much resistance.  Although the deer was knocked-down from the initial shock, it stood back up and ran away leaving me to a dandy tracking chore. Thanks!
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline blhof

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 03:33:08 PM »
I'm surprised the deer got back up, I've used 200gr LBT hardcast in my 357max and have dropped 3 deer with it and all were down for the count.  I did take out both shoulders on one, so it couldn't go if it wanted to.  You might look into Veral's soft nose casting mentioned in previous blogs.

Offline Dinny

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 04:23:46 PM »
Noone was more surprised than I.  The deer was quartering away and I attempted a spine shot between the shoulders.  I just missed the spine and poked through a lung with the bullet exiting out his lower left shoulder/upper leg.  I was already on my cell calling for help to drag him out. It must have been 15-30 seconds after I shot that he got up. I may have mispoke about the brand of bullet. It was a Cast Performance Hard Cast 360gr bullet. 
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Veral

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 08:30:14 PM »
  Cast Performance is definately not LBT, nor affilitated with LBT in any way, though one would think they were by reading what they say of themselves.

  If you have read well about my displacement Velocity formula DV, you'll know that a DV of 100 to 125 is optimum for fastest kills.  So if a bullet that is too heavy is shot at too low a speed, it won't deliver enough DV or wound diameter to cause rapid blood loss and quick kills.

  Trying to recreate how the bullet passed through the deer, it appears you shot from a tree stand, missed the spine and had the bullet exit on the same side down the shoulder and leg, which means, if I'm reading you right:  The bullet probably didn't take out much lung, and only on one side.  If my guess is right, it cancelled out half the deers breathing, or less, but didn't go through the main arteries between the lungs, and may not have taken out even the heaviest part of the lung that was hit.  The impact close to the spine would incapacitate for a few seconds, but slow bleeding and fairly adaquate air to an uninjured lung, allowed him to get up when the shock wore off. 

  This is all a bunch of second guessing, in an attempt to give an accurate answer.  A one inch diameter or larger wound, not to exceed 1 3/8 inch diameter, passing through both lungs and or the major arteries between them, almost always anchors the animal where it stands.  In my experiance, autopsy of animals which run after getting a good sized wound, actually show somewhat minor wounding in the critical organs and major blood system.  Regarding the LBT softnose method.  It is good, but not needed if DV is held between 100 and 125 and shots are half decently placed.
Veral Smith

Offline Dinny

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2009, 04:55:12 PM »
Mr. Smith,
  The first thing I wanted to mention is, "wow!"  You are a very experienced man who recreated the entire scene as if you were there watching over my shoulder that day.  I now know and understand exactly what occurred, a overly heavy bullet at too slow a speed. I will be reviewing some more of your previous posts regarding DV to learn as much as I can.  Do you have any quick suggestions of a specific bullet and speed?
Thank you,
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Gohon

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2009, 05:34:27 PM »
With all due respect I'm not certain you do understand and I don't say that to be mean.  Overly heavy bullet, slow speed, soft nose, pass through or not, the fact remains the deer was hit with no vitals damaged to speak of that would put it down.  I've used some of Cast Performance bullets in the past and they worked well,  though I don't see where you actually said that was what you were using, but I cast my own now and I would say 95% of my shots on deer are pass through using a 357 mag rifle and 45 Colt rifle and none of my deer have traveled over 30 yards after being hit.  Most just stumble a few feet and collapse.  At the moment I'm using Lee cast 300 grain RNFP/GC (actually 313 grain) at 1535 fps in the 45 Colt and even with large pigs, it will punch right through most times.  I've never really been a big fan of the energy dump theory though I certainly recognize it has a roll to a certain extend.  If the spine or brain is not hit or vitals that will cause a interruption of blood to the brain, which will deplete the flow of oxygen to the brain then you have the results you experienced. 

Offline Dinny

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2009, 06:37:36 PM »
Point well made.  The bullet placement could have been better.  I guess a case of buck fever kicked in and I felt as if I were overgunned which may have led to me taking a risky shot.  That entire situation has been a lesson learned.  I have recently purchased a box of 325 gr LBT loaded Buffalo Bore bullets that I will try someday soon. Regardless of ammunition used I know that I have to place better shots and that will come with practice.  I ran through about 50 rds this last weekend at the local range learning the trajectory of a few different bullets at varying ranges. I will be a more informed hunter come next year.
Thanks,
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Veral

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Re: energy transfer??
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 06:31:47 PM »
  You state that you fired 50 shots to learn the trajectory. 
   For you and all cast shooters, I've found the best way to learn the trajectory of my cast loads is to shoot them at unknown ranges in the field, desert, mountains, where ever you can shoot and see the bullets impact.  After doing this for a while, making sure you do it in all light conditions, you'll be able to drop your bullets into your game without taking thought about range in yards and trying to calculate drop in your head.  All that will be wrong 95% of the time anyhow, in my experiance.  With relitively slow moving bullets and the arched trajectory, this 'Kentucky windage' method is the only way to go.  It has worked for be at ranges to well over 500 yards.
Veral Smith