Author Topic: 209 Primer Length Chart  (Read 2714 times)

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Offline Busta

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209 Primer Length Chart
« on: February 22, 2009, 03:04:52 PM »
I have compiled some information, and went as far as to put it into an Excel Spread Sheet/Chart, but I'll be darned if I can get it formatted to be able to post it here. I tried several things, but will need to be able to make it a pdf or something that is compatable, and I am a dummy, so there you have it. Sorry!

I will post some of the results, but will spare you the individual measurements, and just post the high/low/average. I measured 10 random primers from each box, this will give you an average from this size sample, but measureing 10 different primers from the same box could give you different results overall. There is just too much variation to make a 10 piece sample tell the whole story. This could be helpful in finding the right average length primer for your breech plug/rifle. All measurements are in inches to the nearest .0005".

Remington No. 209-4 (.410 bore) Primers. Lot# 419

Average length
.2934
High
.2955
Low
.2920
Extreme Spread
.0035


Remington Kleanbore 209 Muzzleloading Primers. Lot# 38

Average length
.2962
High
.2990
Low
.2945
Extreme Spread
.0045


Winchester triple se7en 209 Muzzleloading Primers. Lot# XEL010

Average length
.2997
High
.3040
Low
.2970
Extreme Spread
.0070


Winchester No. WML209 Muzzleloading Primers (tan box). Lot# WNL038

Average length
.2997
High
.3010
Low
.2980
Extreme Spread
.0030


CCI (Standard) 209 Primers (blue/silver box). Lot#AV655

Average length
.2985
High
.3000
Low
.2960
Extreme Spread
.0040


Winchester W209 Primers (blue box). Lot# YAL151

Average length
.3023
High
.3050
Low
.3000
Extreme Spread
.0050


CCI (Magnum) 209M Primers (red/silver box). Lot# AY427

Average length
.2989
High
.3000
Low
.2960
Extreme Spread
.0040


Federal 209A Primers. Lot# AV492

Average length
.2977
High
.3000
Low
.2950
Extreme Spread
.0050
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Offline Buckhammer74

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »
What is the purpose in measuring primer length?

Offline Underclocked

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 05:27:50 PM »


Busta's chart...  :)    http://s5.tinypic.com/142rfkj.jpg
WHUT?

Offline Hammerspur

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 05:07:03 AM »
What is the purpose in measuring primer length?

For use with the carrierless 209 breechplugs, I'd imagine:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,164130.0.html

Thanks Busta & UC!  ;)
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Offline Busta

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 06:03:02 AM »
What is the purpose in measuring primer length?

Basically, to show that they are all over the place, not uniform. Of course they were never intended to be used outside of a shotshell in their original design. If you shoot some short ones and some long ones back to back, you will see the purpose. Most of the manufacturers of breech plugs build in a fudge factor in their design because of this. The Winchester W209's seem to be the longest overall and most of the others are .005" to .006" shorter on average. If you will notice, some primers are as short as .292" in my chart, I have information that the Cheddite primers are as short as .291", I also had a Winchester W209 that measured .305". That may not seem like much, but it is everything when determining primer pocket depth. You just can't make a one-size-fits-all breech plug, unless you build in some adjustability.

Thanks UC for putting that chart up.
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Offline jjvw

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 06:58:09 AM »
Did you try different lot #s? It seems strange that the 2 cci's are different. Did they use 2 different cup sizes on purpose or just a difference in batch #s?
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Offline Busta

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2009, 02:01:46 PM »
Did you try different lot #s? It seems strange that the 2 cci's are different. Did they use 2 different cup sizes on purpose or just a difference in batch #s?

jjvw,

Actually the CCI's were virtually identical, the highs were both 0.3000", the lows were both 0.2960". The average was only 0.0004" different (0.2985" for the Standard, 0.2989" for the Magnum), probably due to one or two random primers of the ten being on the longer side.

In manufacturing, each one of these primers would be like snowflakes, no two are exactly alike. Of course this is not obvious to the naked eye, but under magnification some things will stand out. Measurements are a way to keep things in check. Also when setting up a new run (Lot #), you have different materials, thickness, hardness, etc,. There are also several other factors when running production, such as actual set-up, die condition, lube, temperature, humidity, handling, and of course assembly.

If you can read the fine print on the bottom, it basiclly says that another 10 random primers from the same box can give you a different result. Use as a reference only.
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 05:46:53 PM »
I hate to sound dumb but what is the difference?
What I mean is how will it affect the firing of a round?
Does it affect presure, or velocity?
To an average reloader what is one to conclude from these differences?
If I use a given load with a Rem primer and do the same load with a WIN primer am I suppose to see a difference?
I have never seen warnings about this difference in print.

Not being a smart a@^ but don't just say shoot them back to back and you will see the purpose.
Tell me what I am suppose to see!

SORRY- Forgot what thread I was in.
I see that you are talking muzzle loaders.
MY FAULT!!!

Still want to know what I am suppose to see by fireing different primers.


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Offline Busta

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 06:27:00 PM »
LONGTOM,

In my experience with primers too short to fill the headspace in a breech plug, you will get a lot of blowback, which does affect pressure/ignition/burn for Blackhorn 209 powder. You are also likely to see primers that look like the one pictured on the right. The one in the middle used a simple o-ring to headspace off the front of the primer, notice how clean it is with absolutely no blowback or pressure loss. A tight fitting primer is desireable IMO. I hope this pic shows you what I mean?

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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: 209 Primer Length Chart
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 06:42:11 PM »
Yes sir, now I know what you are talking about.
I have never had that problem but have seen others that had primers that looked like the one on the right.
Now I know why, and can inform them of the cause,
Thanks for taking the time to show me as well as others.


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"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
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That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07