Author Topic: casual shooting and a few groundhogs (Read 1723 times)

7bru · « **on:** March 02, 2009, 01:48:58 PM »

17 HM2 in a savage bolt action with accu trigger.

I was wondering which one would be the best model. can you kill a ground hog at 200 yards with this caliber. i don't want a 17 HMR. i know it would be better but i like the price of the hm2 and the peformance over the 22 lr.

plan on putting a good scope with turrets on the gun. I shoot left handed and i see where they do make a lefty but its not a priority. i have been shooting rh guns all my life and its not a problem.

BRU

Lurker · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2009, 02:04:37 PM »

There isn't anyway that I would consider either of those two cartridges, as 200 yard cartridges...

I have more respect for my game that that...!

Watch somebody come along and rhapsodize about those two cartridges, as being 200 yard cartridges.

Bill

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2009, 02:13:02 PM »

even at 50 yards tough old groundhogs will often make it back to thier hole after a good hit

7bru · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2009, 02:27:22 PM »

here is what i was usiing as info for the ?. seams like to me if you hit where you are supposed to its not a problem. maybe i should get a super whizz bang magnum 17 mach IV.

14 inches of drop ain't that much. go down to the bottom of the page. 49 lbs of energy would be more than enough to kill a varmint in my opinion.

BRU

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/17M2/

Keith L · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:23:03 PM »

I have seen far to many groundhogs crawl off after hits with the 17HMR at less than 100 yards to recommend any rimfire for that use. I also respect the game to much for that. I will use my .222, or my .204 and get the job done.

GatCat · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:12:23 AM »

I think if you plan on using the .17 M2 for groundhogs, limit yourself to whatever range you can do a brain shot, every time. So, if you can hit a nickle at 50 yards 5 out of 5, go for it.
Mark

7bru · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2009, 02:52:28 AM »

thanks.

BRU

ironglow · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2009, 04:36:20 PM »

Go with the dependable .22 LR for woodchucks out to about 75 yards. HM2 is a good squirrel gun (esp brain shots) With the regular .22 LR you have a much wider choice in rifles and ammo.You canget excellent semi-autos, bolts, singles, pumps or levers. For ammo, you can start with a Super Colibri (20gr@575 fps)go to hi speed HPs (36 gr@1280 fps), Stinger (32gr @ 1640) or Aguila Hyper (30gr@1750fps)..and many loads in between. Anything above the CB caps will have more punch than the HM2. With the Stingers or velociters..you can stretch the yardage some. Last summer, I shot what probably the heaviest woodchuck I have ever shot (I'm 72 and have been@ it all my life). Took that chuck head on at about 100 yards..CCI Mini-mag HP.

Added bonus, the rifle and the ammo will cost less...and you can buy the ammo almost anywhere..

montveil · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:44:15 AM »

Casual shooting is in the eye of the beholder''
If you'r shooting cans etc a 10/22 auto loader is a lot of fun and will kill small game such a rabbits, squirrels and a lot of cans etc.
I do agree with a 22 LR being too light to regularly kill woodchucks unless in the hands of a very skilled shooter and perfect shot placement and preferably under 50 yards.
Sneaking up on chucks to 50 yards will make you a better hunter but expect to do a lot of crawling
If by casual shooting means limited shooting at targets and woodchucks and becoming a great one shot, one kill marksman, I went with a NEF 22 mag which uses ammo that is more expensive than 22 LR but in a single shot rifle you really won't burn as much ammo as with an auto, The new loads in a 22 mag will do about anything you want to shoot up to 100 yards with anything except Eastern coyotes > 40 pounds-- same story as with 22 LR and chucks as you can kill them but many times not cleanly which is the MOST important factor for me when hunting
I too am a lefty and it works great for me and accuracy will equal most bolt action rifles. If you can become a disciplined marksman and make one shot count I recommend the 22 mag. Also for another $100 you can get another barrel in 17 HMR.
Unlike a bolt action, you will not have to reach over a scope to work the action which is almost impossible without completely disturbing your shooting position.
Just some thoughts to consider

notnodak · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:20:00 AM »

Groundhogs are disease carrying, canabalistic vermin and you can kill them with a .17HM2 at 200 just fine but might not be instant death but they will die. I would do it if and only if I was confident the shot would be dead-on. All you have to do is practice practice practice. Now to be clear yes it'll kill them but if this type of shooting is your plan for the rifle I would get a 22 magnum and use the 30gr Hornady. I own a 22 and a HM2 but I carry my 223 for the longer shots.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2009, 11:41:11 AM »

Quote from: 7bru on March 02, 2009, 02:27:22 PM

here is what i was usiing as info for the ?. seams like to me if you hit where you are supposed to its not a problem. maybe i should get a super whizz bang magnum 17 mach IV.

14 inches of drop ain't that much. go down to the bottom of the page. 49 lbs of energy would be more than enough to kill a varmint in my opinion.

BRU

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/17M2/

Me thinks your "opinion" might be short on "experience".

No rimfire is an effective 200 yard ground hog gun. Sure you "might" luck up and put the bullet in the right place and it might kill the critter but then again it might not and even if it does it's likely to be a long lingering death not a clean kill. Is that acceptable to you? It really shouldn't be but only you can answer that question.

Yes you really need a centerfire for that purpose and yeah a .17 MIV aka .17 Fireball would do fine and so would a .223 or even a .22 Hornet for that matter.

ironglow · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2009, 02:16:06 PM »

Agreed GB, 200 yards is a centerfire neighborhood. I have shot woodchucks at 125-150 with my HMR but it should be a head shot. The HMR is more accurate than the .22 mag by far but the mag has more punch.
Some will disagree with me, but I find the .22 mag to be less accurate than the .22LR..I have several .22LRs and presently, a Marlin & an NEF in .22 mag...I have owned all popular brands of .22LR from Anschutz to Winchester, in fact an Anschutz is my "truck Gun".
In Mags I have had the same ..from Anschutz to Winchester..Although the Anschutz .22 mag for instance was accurate, it could not shoot with my present Marlin 880SQ or my present CZ 452.
IMO..While an HM2 may be the best rifle for squirrel with it's inherent accuracy..woodchucks are not their bread & butter.. Lets just look at the figures:

17 HM2 17@2000 = 151 fp 22 LR standard 40@1070 = 102fp Mini mag 36@1280=131 Stinger 32@1640=191
Velociter 40@1450=187 Aguila hyper 30@1750=205

Now, one could say 151 ft lbs, that's not bad..beats some .22s, but we still must consider the diameter & weight of the bullet. The larger bullet should have better knock down power. Rather like on larger game, comparing the faster .223 to the much slower but larger 45/70.
Although I don't have an HM2 I do have an HMR...and within it's range observed on woodchucks, I believe the .22LR with Stingers or Velociters may well beat the HMR for just plain knock down power, although the HMR excells over the 22 LR in every way, past 75-100 yards.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/rimfire.aspx
Just my $.02, take it or junk it !

mrbgt · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2009, 03:13:19 AM »

i've taken groundhogs out to 150 with my hmr, i wouldn't recommend any farther out , groundhogs in ohio can get pretty big . i had one running away from me at about 90 yds and shot it through the rear and it dropped in its tracks , i was actually pretty surprised on that one . if you can head shoot them ,200 wouldn't be a problem but if there is any breeze the bullet path would look similar to shooting around corners (anyone seen the movie ''wanted''?)

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2009, 03:59:34 AM »

Agreed mrbgt;
My experience with HMR is about the same. One thing I like about the HMR is the lack of felt recoil; I can shoot a 'hog' and watch him fall on his face.

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2009, 07:49:58 AM »

I've killed PD's out to 225 w/ one shot from my .17 HMR. That being said, I would opt to use a centerfire to kill a GH. They're a lot tougher than PD's.

KAYR1 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2009, 03:37:11 PM »

17 HMR is about a 120 yard groundhog killer, tops. I have killed upwards of 50 with that caliber, but never much past 80-100 yards, ususally closer. I does a number on them, and kills as fast or faster than my 22-250 at clsoe range. I dont own a 17Mach, but I think that you are better served my a .22 centerfire of some sort than a rimfire for the ranges you describe.

DennyRoark · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:03:27 AM »

Ive killed 26 chucks at 100 yards or less with my .17HMR in the last 2 years (farm pest control). Every one was a bang flop. With my paper experience, don't shoot any farther if the wind is blowing at all! Last weekend, got bored and took 3 shots at a clod at 125 and it wouldn't even break it up! At the mentioned ranges, I find it to be more than acceptable, with MOA at 100 in my NEF single shooter (again with NO wind).

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2009, 10:35:36 AM »

DennyRoark, Singleshotsam;
Going back to the original question; 17bru asked about the 17HM2 asd a 200 yard chuck killer..an HM2 is a far cry from an HMR.
Perhaps you would like to venture a guess for him with the same bullet @550 fps less velocity.

Ron T. · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2009, 01:12:19 AM »

I started hunting "varmints" (groundhogs & crows) 'way back in the early-1960s using a heavy-barreled, 13-pound Sako in .222 and still have the rifle... and it still shoots less than a half-minute of angle.

The smallest 5-shot group I've ever shot (while developing a varmint hunting load with VihaVouri N-130 rifle powder) was LESS than 1/10th of an inch (.091"). But that was the best 5-shot group I ever shot. It will normally shoot ¼-inch to ½-inch , 5-shot groups @ 100 yards with my handloads if I do my part.

I have fired this rifle & load at 25 yard intervals from 100 yards to 250 yards using the same sight picture (holding directly on the center of the bullseye) and found a 50 grain, .224" Sierra "Blitz" bullet @ a chronographed 3200 fps (using 21.8 grains of V-V N-130) shoots pretty darned "flat" from 100 yards out to 225 yards, then drops rapidly beyond that making the .222 Remington an honest 225 yard varmint cartridge.

Yes, with "hold-over" and some luck, you can get a "hit" further out, but for precision varmint shooting, 225 yards is the limit. However, the Sako with my hunting hand-loads is so accurate that I won't take a shot under 150 yards because it's not a "challenge".

By the same token, a .22 Hornet shooting a handloaded 40 grain bullet @ 2750-2785 fps is a good 150 yard varmint cartridge for groundhogs and smaller varmints. I believe shooting at groundhogs at 200 yards with a Hornet is a bit of a stretch just as shooting at varmints at 250-300 yards with a .222 is also a bit of a "stretch". It's just too easy to make a "wounding shot" rather than a "killing shot" once the cartridge's realistic range is exceeded.

As hunters, we have a "responsibility" to make clean, SURE one-shot kills on ANY type of game at which we shoot. Once you start shooting at any animal beyond the cartridge's "point-blank" range and have to "guess" about how much "hold over" to use to hit the point you wish the bullet to strike, you're taking a chance of only wounding the animal at which you're shooting.

Of course, if a hunter/shooter has had considerable practice at the longer range and can consistently make killing shots at those extended ranges, then that's a totally different situation. But I'm talking about the average (but very good marksman) varmint hunter, not the average big game hunter who generally is NOT a precision shooter like his varmint-hunting counterpart.

While I've never shot varmints with the .17 HMR and .17 HM2's lighter bullets and lower muzzle velocities, I'd question their use beyond 100 yards on usually tough varmints like ol' Mr. Groundhog... and I'd certainly question even the more powerful .17 HMR's use on groundhogs at 200 yards! There's a HUGE difference in "toughness" & "survivability" between a prairie dog and a groundhog.

As Ironglow wrote, 200 yards is really a "centerfire neighborhood".

At least, that's my 2¢.............

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

DennyRoark · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:28:42 AM »

Quote

DennyRoark, Singleshotsam;
Going back to the original question; 17bru asked about the 17HM2 asd a 200 yard chuck killer..an HM2 is a far cry from an HMR.
Perhaps you would like to venture a guess for him with the same bullet @550 fps less velocity.

With no experience with the 17HM2, I should have remained silent, but with the same bullet at slower speed, I'd feel confident in saying that, NO, not a 200 yd'd gun. Acccording to my Hornady ballistic chart for the HMR, I'd wonder if a head shot would produce a clean kill on a chuck at that that range. A 5-10 MPH sidewind will produce several inches of drift at 100 w/the HMR. At 150, the HMR is running our of gas. Ballistic charts are readily available from Hornady, but can post if needed...

Denny

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:57:17 AM »

Here's the CCI ballistic charts..I understrand that CCI makes about all the HMR and HM2 ammo. Original question about 100 yard chuck shooting, here's why I recommend .22 LR over the HM2..take the ballistic chart. On the left side you will see where you can click on "detail" .....do so beside the HM2 and the Velociter for instance. Then remember, with the wide variety of ammo available for .22 RF rifles, you could have a very versatile gun. Even if you have a target chamber for your gun, the Velociter will still fit, since it is standard length.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/rimfire.aspx

ironglow · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:01:03 AM »

Check your HM2 against the array of Aguila ammo, especially thygeir 30gr "hyper" @1750fps..

http://www.22ammo.com/aquila.html

notnodak · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2009, 01:28:51 PM »

Quote from: 7bru on March 02, 2009, 01:48:58 PM

17 HM2 in a savage bolt action with accu trigger.

I was wondering which one would be the best model. can you kill a ground hog at 200 yards with this caliber. i don't want a 17 HMR. i know it would be better but i like the price of the hm2 and the peformance over the 22 lr.

plan on putting a good scope with turrets on the gun. I shoot left handed and i see where they do make a lefty but its not a priority. i have been shooting rh guns all my life and its not a problem.

BRU

To answer your original question: Get the FV model and order a Boyds Evo stock(southpaw friendly), you will be very happy. You probably already have a .22 and found out how ammo-finicky they can be past 50yrds. That is why you want a HM2. I have .22's and love them but the HM2 is my "go-to gun".