Author Topic: Penetration test for 30-30 vs 44Mag finally got done.  (Read 3126 times)

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Offline teddy12b

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Penetration test for 30-30 vs 44Mag finally got done.
« on: January 21, 2009, 08:21:44 AM »
I've got a shelf full of factory & handloaded 30-30 ammo and I want to see what penetrates the best and holds it's weight the best.  I thought for sure somewhere on the internet this has already been done and results posted but I couldn't find it on Google.

I'm thinking about lining up wet phonebooks and using that old method.  Whether that way's perfect or not I don't know, but it seems like it'd tell you something worthwhile. 

I also want to see how my 44mag compares to the 30-30 using the same testing methods. 

I have a limited supply of old phonebooks and I'm trying to figure out how many of them I need to have lined up to make sure I stop the bullets and not just have the rounds go all the way through.  Does 4 phone books sound good?

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 08:34:17 AM »
Figures, I always find out what I'm looking for shortly after everyone the question.  Here is something you all may find interesting.

http://www.levergun.com/articles/3030_Rifle.htm

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 08:35:09 AM »
I bet the biggest difference would be bullet design.  I've never tested it because I've never owned or shot a rifle that didn't consistently pass through whatever I'm shooting.

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 08:42:28 AM »
I've read articles about 30-30 vs 44mag before, but they've never really compared the two with many different bullets.

I plan on testing

30-30
Federal      170   Soft Points RN
Hornady      160   Leverelution
Reminton      170   Core-lokt
Winchester 170   Power Points
Winchester 150   John Wayne PP
Federal      170   Partitions
Hunters      150   Barnes TSX
Handloads   170    Sierra Pro-Hunters

and
44mag
Winchester  240   JSP
Grizzley       320   Cast GC
Handloads    240   Hornady XTP

I'll probably find a couple more 44mag loads to test while I'm at it.

Offline trotterlg

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 10:21:07 AM »
How many phone books you need probably depends on where you live, I use three for my small cal's but then they are Seattle books, if you live some town with a population of 300 you may need more.  Larry
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 10:42:09 AM »
In the past when I've done wet paper penetration test I used magazines and newspaper and such but not phone books as I don't have access to enough to do the job and our phone books are a bit less than an inch thick.

I try to have at least 18" to 24" of wet paper to make sure I catch all bullets. With some you'll need it. I doubt any of those .30-30 bullets will require that much but if you use hard cast 300s in the .44 magnum that might not be enough.


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Offline John R.

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 04:32:33 AM »
Check out the Box of Truth. They do all kinds of penetration tests (although I'm not sure about the 30-30) I think it's boxoftruth.com. If that won't do it, just type in Box of Truth on a search engine. :)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 05:30:33 AM »
When you do your tests, I would like to know the results. 

Thanks

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 06:04:20 AM »
When you do your tests, I would like to know the results. 

Thanks

I'll be sure to write a big long report about everything I do and every step along the way.  For now, I'm in the process of collecting phone books and I may have just hit the jackpot with some old books at work. 

I'm also thinking of taking a couple shots using my 30-06 in common bullets & weights just to get a feel for the comparison.  I looked up the website Box of truth.  There was some interesting information there, but not exactly what I want to know.  I saw a few things that really surprised me too!  It's a great website and I plan on doing a lot more reading there when I have the time. 

Offline Syncerus

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 09:23:17 AM »
It's a lot of work that's already been done. The old "Ballistics In Perspective" by Mike LaGrange has lots and lots of penetration tests and values. The book focuses on African hunting, and probably has no data on the .30/30 and .44 magnum.

I'd look around for a while before I went to the effort of performing penetration tests. I think that you're re-inventing the wheel.
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Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 09:38:02 AM »
I know what you're saying about reinventing the wheel.  The problem I have is that there are about 5 or 6 factory loads that all cost about the same and shoot about the same out of my 30-30.  I'd like to find out what one will punch the deepest and retain the most weight.  It completely makes sense that someone else has already done everything I'm talking about, but I haven't been able to find it.  The main purpose of the test will be to see the differences between the 30-30 loads and then compare that to a 44mag rifle.  Mainly because I have both rifles and the added bonus of the 44mag rifle test will be able to see where my handloads stack up, and the reason that's nice to know is because I used that load to take out a 8pt buck last season.  I'm hoping that there will be a clear winner between the two.  I also got thinking that while I'm at it I'd use two or three of the most popular 30-06 load so people who read the report and have likely used Rem core-lokt or Win power-point ammo would have something to compare to. 

I'm just going to wrap tape around a stack of old out dated books and start shooting & measuring.  Shouldn't more than two hours total and I'll learn a lot from it and learn exactly what I want to know.  There's just something about finding out for yourself.

Offline superdown

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 09:53:26 AM »
what distance do you test at ?

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 10:16:07 AM »
I have never done a test like this.  I'll likely be 25 yards or 50 yards.  I'm hoping 50 yards.  I want to keep it close enough that the 22LR doesn't just bounce off.  Ideally I'd be 50 yards or more and that way I wouldn't need as thick of a stack of books, but it's very likely that it'll be 25 yards give or take a little because of where I'll be able to do all this.  The regular ranges I go to don't allow anything other than paper targets to be brought in and hung up but if I call and ask they might let me do this because it really is just a paper target.  It'd be nice to do this up close and then at 100 yards or so. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 05:39:39 PM »
That's actually false logic. The faster the bullet is going at impact the more it will expand. The more it expands the less it will penetrate.


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Offline bilmac

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 02:00:58 AM »
Teddy

That was an exceptional article you found in Levergun, that sure took lots and lots of work. What really stands out is the performance of the 130 Speer FP. Good accuracy, and what is amazing is more muzzle energy end even more retained energy at 200 yds than the big bullets, plus very impressive penetration. That almost defies logic. Must have some kind of magic or something. I'm switching.

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 02:24:42 AM »
That's actually false logic. The faster the bullet is going at impact the more it will expand. The more it expands the less it will penetrate.

Sounds fair enough.  I'm likely going to be shooting the books at 25 yards.  It would be interesting to see if the different bullets would perform better at closer range or farther ranges.  I would expect there to be some differences between how a jacketed hollow point would react up close and far away just because of how much the bullet will open up.  I'm getting more and more interested in this little test the more I think about it.  More questions keep coming up too.

Offline Syncerus

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 02:34:10 AM »
Rather than shoot at multiple ranges, it's much easier to use a chronograph and create loads at multiple velocity thresholds. It's lots of work, and in the end you'll discover that all of the factory .30/30 loads will kill deer.

You'll also discover that all the factory .44 Magnum loads will kill deer.

;)
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Offline teddy12b

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Re: Anyone ever do a penetration test for their rifles?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 04:00:27 AM »
I don't own a chronograph but a range I shoot at has one that I can use.  When I get done with the books I'll run the best loades through the chronograph and report the findings.  The chronograph speeds are nice to know, but ultimately I want to actually see for myself what actually works the best between all the factory loads and my handloads.

I'm not worried about any of these rounds for deer.  I'm doing this so I can see how they'd stack up for a bear hunt where penetration and weight retention are a little more critical, but also just for the curiousity of it all.  The 30-30 vs 44mag debate has gone on for a long time and I'd like to see for myself.

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Penetration test for 30-30 vs 44Mag finally got done.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 05:34:50 AM »
The test finally got done last week and I’ve been putting all the information from it together since.

Goals / Reasons for doing this:

#1   I wanted to setup a shooting test using a reasonably consistent resistance to measure the depth of penetration & weight retention of bullets.  Not that I don’t trust people, but I wanted to see for myself and have a little fun while I was at it.

#2   I want to specifically compare the bullets of factory loaded ammunition for a 30-30 rifle to determine what the different performances are. 

#3   Once I have established what the 30-30 can do I want to compare that information to what a 44 magnum rifle will do under similar circumstances.

#4   I want to learn how the different bullets & loads compare so I can make the best informed choice possible for caliber & ammunition to take bear hunting.  I honestly think all this would be a complete waste of time if it was to test for deer hunting performance.  Black bears are built differently and the requirements for hunting can be different.

**The load that will be the benchmark for all others to be compared to is my handloaded 44mag Hornady 240gr HP-XTP that I used last season to take an 8pt buck with.  At the 60 yard shot this bullet weighed 184.2grs and was found under the skin on the far side of the animal.  This is the only comparison where I have a bullet recovered from game with one of the loads tested.

The books were set at a lasered distance of 60 yards from the muzzle.  I choose this distance because it would make for a more accurate comparison to the performance of the benchmark.





The rounds tested were the following:


I included the 9mm in the test because I had it with my at the range and there was an open spot on the books to shoot.  It was for my own curiousity more than anything.

The guns tested were a stainless Puma 20” 44mag and a Marlin 336W 30-30.






I started this by stacking books and wrapping some packing tape around them so they’d stick together.  I also tried to make sure that the books were as flat as possible to make things easier.







I didn’t want to have bullet holes too close to one another because I was worried that the cavity created by one bullet may effect how another performs.  I used two stacks of books to eliminate that problem and fired the benchmark round into each set of books to make sure I had something comparable to reference between the two sets of books.

I had planned on measuring the depth of penetration by putting a rod into the each of the bullet holes until it touched the back of a bullet and then measuring the rod.  With the most of the bullets being completely separated this wasn’t a reliable way to measure how deep the bullets traveled.  Especially since the bullets all traveled about the same distance give or take an inch, it didn’t have the vast differences I was expecting.  I was a little disapointed that I couldn't measure bigger differences between the penetration of the different rounds, but it's possible that there isn't a big difference.

I would have liked to have setup more stacks of books and fired more of each different type of round into those stacks to take an average performance.  I would have liked to done the same test at 100 yards also to see the difference that the distance would have made.  I was limited by time, but I may go back out again another time and do this again, but on that day I’ll be taking my 30-06 too.



RESULTS;

Weight Retention:  The results ended up that every lead 30-30 bullet basically came completely apart and didn’t hold together.  The Barnes triple shock bullet was completely in tack with the exception of one broken petal.  The largest chunks of bullets found were from the 44mag rounds, but in all fairness they were much heavier bullets too.







Penetration:  I had stacked over a foot and a half thick of books for the bullets to go into but nothing penetrated past 6” into the books.  The hard cover on the back of the second book seemed to be the final barrier that stopped all the bullets in their tracks except one.  The only bullets to break through that last hard cover was the Grizzly 320gr hard cast ammo and even through it was sticking out of that back cover, it didn’t penetrate into the front cover of the next book.


What’s all this mean? 

I found some information that would be useful and some information that wasn’t any big surprise, but I got to see it for myself.  As far as the 30-30 goes the clear winner in my book was the Barnes bullet.  It didn’t out penetrate the other bullets like I was expecting it to, but at least the bullet stayed together and there’s something to be said for that.  Regarding the 44mag, the heavier bullets did seem to make a difference because I was able to find larger chunks.  The winner in the 44mag test was the Grizzly cast bullet, because it out penetrated every other bullet in the test and retained much of it’s weight.

Maybe this information will help others, maybe it won't, but after doing all this I wanted to at least make the information available to everyone.