Author Topic: The Poodle-Shooter revisited. (Read 1204 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** March 20, 2009, 03:20:05 AM »

Dear Guys,

I don't own a .223 or a semi-auto rifle. But, I have watched for years the arguments on boards regarding the effectiveness of the .223 round, and particularly in self-defense or survival situations.

The issue of the adequacy of the .223 as a main battle cartridge for military operations by troops is one thing. In these instances, FMJ ammo is used, and there seems to be very substantial questions as to its suitability.

But, I simply don't see how there can be an argument about its suitability for self-defense or survival or shtf situations, for the simple fact that in these instances, soft-point hunting ammo could be utilized. Isn't the .223 a totally different animal when used with soft-points? Does anybody honestly believe that an assailant who had been hit at 300 yards with a soft point semi-jacketed bullet would simply get back up and resume the fight? I tend to think that the wound would be horrific and event ending. I can't believe that anybody in such a situation would be using FMJ as his first-choice of ammunition anyway.

Regards,

Mannyrock

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:51:35 AM »

You are absoultly right, a 55 gr V max in your chest would leave a horrable wound. SP would not be much diffrent as a matter of fact most sporting rounds would be much more effctive than thier milatary conterparts in any caliber, and a .45-70 taken in the chest even with armor on is taking that person out of the fight if not killing him by blunt force trama. Ya don't have to bleed to die.

Default · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:20:19 PM »

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mcwoodduck · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:36:06 PM »

You are correct. Any of the varmint rounds would be horrific on a person.
Unfortunatly I have my AR rifle sighted in with Federal/ Lake City red box 55 grain FMJ boat tails for High power matches.
But even a nick at 300 yards I think would be a fight stopper.
Hey if you even nick me at 300 there is no way I will be able to get closer with out getting more damage and it would turn me around to look for easier picking if i were up to no good.
Even 100 yards would stop most people. think about it you are on the ground on a football field at one end and you need to go to the other end. From the ground it looks really far. Also if there are multiple attackers seeing a buddy get hit may stop them.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:50:50 PM »

Got to ask , what if the target is in a vehicle ? or behind cover ? having a round that defeats either might be seen as a plus?
The effective use of the expanding bullet is based on it expanding to a larger cal. why not start out with a larger cal. to begin with ? and not depend on an event taking place ?

GameHauler · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:39:42 PM »

I was never in the Armed Services
but do know that the wanted affects
of a bullet is to wound the victim.
A wounded victim will require the aid
of probably 2 soldiers to rescue him.
Thats 3 out of the battle

Now you have the other resources
to save his life and if NOTHING more
that is a Hugh hit in the war funds.

Make since?

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:08:59 PM »

Quote from: GameHauler on March 20, 2009, 01:39:42 PM

I was never in the Armed Services
but do know that the wanted affects
of a bullet is to wound the victim.
A wounded victim will require the aid
of probably 2 soldiers to rescue him.
Thats 3 out of the battle

Now you have the other resources
to save his life and if NOTHING more
that is a Hugh hit in the war funds.

Make since?

That is not really true, Most third world countries care little if at all about human life, you get hit you go down they might come back for you later if your still alive or they leave you for the Americains to patch up for them.

As to penitrating cover unless you have tungston core penitrators they won't go thru much anyway, If you want to shoot thru something get a .30 cal or larger. A .45-70 with solids loaded hot will just about punch thru a car longways.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:37:41 PM »

My buddy was bad mouthing the AR he just got as not being able to do much if anyone were behind cover. He named trees, cars, and other items.
I grabbed a section of telephone poll about 12" round by 3 feet long and put it out on the range with a card board box with a target taped to behind the poll at 50 yards. The three types of ammo (two were fmj and one a sp all were 55 grain) I had with me were able to go right through the telephone poll and into the target and out. Don't know about you but a car body is a whole lot thinner and less dense than a telephone poll.
You all need to stop watching movies.

Default · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:23:38 PM »

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Badnews Bob · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2009, 02:13:09 AM »

I was refering to the varmit type rounds this post is about, I have shot a car door with a 55 gr V max and It made it thru the skin of the door but not thru the second layer it blew apart just like it was suppose to do. M 193 ball on the other hand will usally go all the way thru a car, Varmit rounds are not made to penitrate FMJs are.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2009, 02:33:48 AM »

I would guess that one thing youd run into is a soft point is not going to be as good at penetrating body armor.

targshooter · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2009, 03:21:15 AM »

The book indicated is a good read both for the history of the 5.56 cartridge and the M16.
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rifle-Retrospective-Modern-Military/dp/0889351155

Default · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:07:44 AM »

Your right manny what were we thinking responding to the question you possed , In such a well versed light..

God forbid it should'nt go down the way you see it in your head ... God forbid we should try and cover any and all possible ground in a forum conversation .

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mannyrock · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2009, 03:11:14 PM »

I'm sorry, and I really mean no offense to anyone, but this string demonstrates what I think is the questionable turn that most of these discussions take. We begin by talking about the effectiveness of the .223 softpoint in a survival or shtf scenario (not a military assault) and very quickly it devolves into the hypothetical realm of talking about its suitablility for shooting through trucks, cars and body armor. I don't realistically believe that in any survival or shft situation I'm gonna be in a firefight with a car full of guys driving forward in it to attack me. I'm sorry, but I simply do not. (I'm also trying to picture in my head what would happen if a car full of assailants were suddenly subjected to a 20 round magazine of .223 softpoint. I think I know the answer.)

Moreover, the body armor concern also confuses me. I do not honestly think that in a survival or shtf situation, someone wearing body armor is going to feel so safe and snug in it that he is going to willingly face fire from .223 softpoints to get what he wants? One hit on an assailant's arm, and I believe his arm would be practically torn off. The same would be true of any other appendage.

Were I to be assigned to a roadblock in Iraq, then yes, I would worry about shooting through cars and shooting through body armor of suicide attackers. But here, I believe it would simply be irrelevant.

Just some thoughts.

Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2009, 02:06:01 AM »

mannyrock, the pole - most are seasoned ( dry ) and offer little to stop a bullet . I have owned 2 AR's and alot of different ammo some from lake city that were made to do just that . none will go thru a live tree of any dia. tried it . The 223 will take a mag. full to go thru. a 8 inch block wall most 308's will do it in 2-3 rounds of most any ammo.
I find it shall we say unique that in this day of drive by shootings you know with confidence you will never face a car full of dead beats trying to hurt you . I can say with as much confidence i would be suprised in such times i would not . As a matter of fact in present times it is very possible where i work.
The reason the debate always turns to such "things" is many people realize the short commings of the .556 round and want to express such in an effort to warn others. The same could be said why it is always mentioned that you can carry more when in fact if you carry a back pack full of inferior ammo you will only die tired in the end .

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2009, 02:34:02 AM »

as to it penetrating vests. theres lots of bad guys that have them. theres also lots of good guys who may become the bad guy in a survival situation that have them. Lots of people get shot by the military during police states. My ammo supply is about spilt between ball and soft point. Id want soft point ammo for hunting during in a survival situation but id be loading ball to defend myself.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2009, 02:45:29 AM »

can't imagine what a 308 would feel like with a vest on .

fastbike · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2009, 08:13:48 AM »

It would feel like dying.

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 23, 2009, 02:45:29 AM

can't imagine what a 308 would feel like with a vest on .

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** March 23, 2009, 08:16:35 AM »

I know of a guy who took 2 from a .556 . he was demoing a vest . bruised his ribs .

rockbilly · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2009, 09:01:36 AM »

I love the little black gun, matter of fact, I own several of them. In reguards to it's effectiveness, let me say, in Viet Nam it wasn'r uncommon for an American to abandon this M-16 and pick up an AK. Why? The AK is a more effective battle weapon for urban warfare, it also works better in thick jungle cover. Check the history of the battle of Da Tau where the largest percentage of American troops picked up AKs.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2009, 12:07:29 PM »

I've owned a few AK's.
Seems the cooler they look the worse they shot.
The little fold under para model I had was OK for first shot but all after were 3' above the target. That's when I realized that a standard fixed stock was the way to go.
The standard model I had was OK but again could not hit much past 150 yards.
The one I have left is a long bareled model and it will at least hit everything at 100 yards. I used to shoot Hi Power wiht it and my scores were in the mid 300's. Went ot the AR and scores jumped 35 points.
I have used the AR and The AK in three gun matches. Again no contest. the AR wins hands down in speed and accuracy.
On the other side of the coin. the AR has had a problem once( I think it was an ammo problem and not a gun problem). and the AK has never had a problem even being dirty for 6 months and being taken back out to the range it never failed to fire or cycle.
But in a survival situation, either hunting or in self defence I would rather shoot once or twice than have to send a burst down range.
Many of the problems that the AR had was due to McNamera not listening to the arms guys and did not chrome line the chamber and bore and then used up the surplus powder for the 308/ 30-06 that the army had and did not get the 223 it's own correct powder that fouled less.