Author Topic: Please explain the benefits of 1x19 vs 7x7 snare cable> (Read 2565 times)

Corey Hain · « **on:** August 27, 2003, 04:23:21 AM »

What is the advantage of using 1x19 snare cable over 7x7? I have always used 7x7 and was wondering if 1x19 would work better for me. Thanks in advance for you answers. Corey

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2003, 06:46:34 AM »

1 X 19 gives you a more round loop which some guys like. 1 bundle of 19 wires is a bit stiffer than 7 bundles of 7 smaller wires. There are some benefits with the 1 x 19, I'm told, if you pre-load your snares ...I don't pre-load snares for coyotes.

Coyotes usually walk along at a good clip, when they walk into a snare most timies they walk on through and they'er yours. Cats and I suppose others, sneak about and fiddle around, this habit leads to more refusals and back outs. I a pre-loaded snare may be of benefit in these cases.

Corey Hain · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2003, 07:13:48 AM »

I am puter illiterate. sorry

Corey Hain · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2003, 07:24:06 AM »

Thank you WQ if you don't mind me asking what do you use for snares, i'm talking length, cable size, and lock? I have been hearing alot about longer snares 8-10 foot, cam locks, and extended checks. A 2 day check sounds like it would work good for me, to maximize my animal harvest, and minimize the ammout of time spent. Curious to hear your thoughts. thanks Corey

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2003, 09:02:27 AM »

I perfer 8 ft min length, 5/64 7x7, Amberg or cam-loc +B.A.D. "S"+ tensioning spring. These kill most coyotes very fast. I have no check interval on snares. In cold weather carcasses cool / freeze and remain good for a long time (4 too 6 days is not uncommon for me) provided you don't have problems with other critters damaging them. I find no problems with chew outs etc because these two systems are leathal. To get the best results the longer cable is important...gives them a good lunge to set the spring and lock. Both systems utilize release devices (about 280 lbs) and large animals go on. Domestics are not a problem for me. If you have this issue, most dogs will just lie down and wait for you (you'll need to be checking snares in these areas daily to avoid problems). I do not snare in pastures with stock ...nothing is 100% perfect.

Any more? fire away.

Corey Hain · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2003, 10:39:14 AM »

WQ thanks for sharing your info, i see there are 50# and 25# springs, which do you use? Do you prefer the cams or the amberg locks or is there much diff? What do you use for a loop support system? Thanks again for the info. Corey

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2003, 01:14:50 PM »

I use Amberg springs on all snares and I don't know what poundage they are.

I started using Cams so I have a pile of them and they work so I keep using them. The "S" BAD and spring works OK on the Cams and if one pulls you have all the parts (only need to replace the BAD "S". On the Ambergs when one pulls you always need a ferrule and can loose the spring. However, the Ambergs were designed to be used with a spring and I believe the design is superior to the Cam+"S"+spring.

The Amberg lock is a bit bigger than a Cam but not bigger than a Cam+"S"+spring and the Ambergs come in a brown color not shinny (if that is of concern). Also you will need to buy a crimping tool for the Amberg release ferrule. Both locks are fast and work well. One other point that I think is important, John Graham will spend time helping you with the Ambergs... that is worth a bunch in my book and he is a friend.

Supports, well what ever it takes. I'll hang from a bush or tree with tie wire, twist tie wire like Newt does to extend from a bush, use 11 ga wire and on open trails use stand outs (30"X 1/4 rod with 24" of 11ga wire tacked on the top and a flat spade hammered on the end to prevent spinning in the wind. In a pinch I've use twist ties that I bundle my snares with. I make all my snares with plastic tubing collars (whammies) to hold the support. For Coyotes the support system doesn't seem so critical. For coons and maybe other critters some say they want their supports dead solid so the loop pulls down before the snare comes off the support.

You didn't ask about loops ...I use a 10 to 15 inch loop 10 to 15 inches off the ground. All this depends on things like, fox and cats and cover. But if your after coyotes in open contry a big loop gets the lock up out of their sight path. The dummyies always seem to going along the trails at a pretty good clip and you have them. Best thing is to start with the text book 10-12" loops 10" off the ground and try some bigger ones here and there to see what you like. I trick I use to help hang loops is to paint (what ever) a ring around my hammer handle 10 inches high. I drive the stake and set the hammer in the trail and hang the bottum of the loop to the line or above what ever I want. Till you get use to things you can use the mark to judge your loop size also.

Hope this is helpful.

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2003, 05:13:43 PM »

One BIG point not brought up is the fact that the 7x7 will "grab" the fur easier oftentimes resulting in a catch were with the 19...there would be none. The 19 is "slicker" but that does NOT make it better. I use the 7x7.
later
lynx

Corey Hain · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2003, 05:52:58 AM »

thanks for the tips and the help guys, one more question- if you are snaring strictly for bobcat, what do you run as far as loop height and diameter?

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2003, 06:05:38 AM »

I snare cats every year BUT I don't run a snare line for cats. I'll suggest that you read Tom Krause's article in the last issue of American Trapper. I'm certain that LynxC will have good info also.

The cats I snare are in snares that will take any coyote that comes by. Some say, and it makes sense, that you will be better off using smaller loops and cable for cats. You can do this with little fear of coyotes getting caught (and chewing out) if you crowd things down; same as you can do with a trap set. I will be setting some short snare lines this winter for cats in the rough stuff and plan to use some 1/16 cable setups. I never miss a chance at letting the critters make me look stupider than I already do...keeps the blood boiling and dealers like ole Boggy laughing all the way to the bank. (lets see if the ole fart is reading all the posts like he's suppose to) :-D

RdFx · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2003, 05:10:15 AM »

Ha first Bog has to have a gallon of coffee to read anything LOL

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2003, 06:26:07 AM »

Good to see you back...ya old buzzard bait ya

Now don't you go and start pickin on me again :cry:

WhiteMtnCur · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2003, 06:42:00 AM »

When snaring coyotes and cats, I consider 1x19 cable to be far superior to 7x7. A properly contructed and loaded 1x19 snare will have some spring to it which will facilitate better catches.

The construction of 1x19 cable is smoother than 7x7 and locks fall faster and smoother on it than they do on rougher 7x7 cable - Hence the reason chaining Cam-locks became popular after many snaremen switched to using 1x19 cable. Also as lynx-cat said, the 1x19 doesn't bind into the fur as 7x7 often does.

The Cam-lock is the supreme snare lock on the market. There is a design flaw in the Amberg, and while it does work and has killed many coyotes, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. Yes, true Cam-locks are bigger and with a breakaway device and tension spring, they can stand out more, but that's as easy fix.

The springs that come with the Amberg I'm told are 28lbs or 35lbs. I've heard both from reliable sources, but I'm not sure which is true. They're somewhere in there. The bigger (50lb+) tension springs are superior in my opinion. Even when snaring foxes or cats, the bigger springs tend to produce better results.

I personally use 12' snares when trail snaring (5' snare and 7' extension), or only the 5' snare on a kill-pole in other situations (such as culverts).

Snareman · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2003, 06:19:20 PM »

Some good information above. I do find that hair is more of a hinderance that many have said in the past. Often I see how information is past down and it makes me wonder why my personal findings are much different. My experience shows that hair actually makes the lock "slip" as opposed to grab. The thoughts or remarks I have seen many times are that the 7x7 grabs into lock and the fur which makes for a solid lock. I disagree. I do not see how very minute diametered hairs can make a difference on animals that in many cases have exerted hundreds of pounds of dynamic load to the equipment and cable that it will make the lock bind as described. I don't see these hairs aiding the lock as described. Some locks are more prone to sucking in hairs. Some are excellent for keeping hairs out. When the lock can make solid contact with the cable, this creates a solid hold. The addition of hairs amongst that contact creates the ideal situation for the lock to slip.

For dispatch, I see no better lock than the cam lock as mentioned above. Given quick put downs, the lock can last a long time which makes for the added costs worth it. However, if things do not go right and target gets to work the rig for a while, that's just metal on metal friction which shortens the life time of the lock.

The Amberg spring is 33 lbs. I much prefer the 50lb. over the 25lb. Just examine the catch circle and do an after catch autopsy and clues reveal in many cases the catch was alive longer in the 25lb. set up. It never ceases to amaze me to see a 'yote stretched out laying on his side without as much as bent twig around!

7x7 vs 1x19 which is better questions are vague. They each have strong advantages when using them correctly. I can get 3/32 7x7 to hold a perfect loop up to a 17 diameter when loaded properly so the talk of 1x19 making better loops only pertains to unloaded snares. I don't strive for round loops anyway. My snares are normally 10 to 15% wider than tall when completed.

All this snare talk is making me fidgety. I'm gonna make me some snares!

Good Luck Gentleman

Snareguy-

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2003, 06:54:00 PM »

This has been an informative thread, thanks to all.

I would like for the discussion to be extended a bit: what is the design flaw of the Amberg Lock? Please elaborate on the statement that both 7X7 and 1X19 are good when used correctly; precisely what do you mean used correctly?

Snareman · « **Reply #15 on:** September 01, 2003, 09:56:16 AM »

In regards to the Amberg lock, it is a good lock that can be used for dispatch. Years ago it tested well against other dispatch locks. However, in the tests, "poor" versions of the true style cam lock were used. So in the end, the Amberg was found to do well in dispatch, but was never truly tested against the cam lock. I would bet the whole farm if the two were compared in tests side by side, the superiority of the true cam lock would be evident. I am also talking a few more percentage points here.

Suffice to say, I would not say the Amberg has design flaws, it is a different lock.

The cam lock is heavier built. The rivet used is better. I have received many Amberg locks where I could use my finger nail to remove the rivet. The cam lock is more tight. The Amberg has some slop inside it.

I only use a loaded snare. I learned from Leonard Pavek over 20 years ago. In the beginning, I dismissed it's application and kept using normal snares. After a while I realized a few points about it. Loaded snares give a great loop appearance...more round and open, which I prefer than just bending a figure 7 at the end of the cable that gives the tear drop shape appearance. When using 1x19 it gives an unloaded snare a more round appearance than the 7x7. It also does not close as well as 7x7 in smaller loop diameters. It gets stiff in a hurry. When snaring fox and coons, this stiffness leads to animals slipping the loop entirely or getting caught on the gut or hips. I mainly speak of 5/64 or 3/32 in the 1x19. The 1x19 loads well.

The 1x19 has a smoother surface and gives way to "less" surface area for a lock to get a hold of. To compensate for this fact, some have filed checkering on the surface of the cam lock to maintain it's holding ability. As far as locking potential, the 7x7 is superior because it's a rougher cable that gives way to more grabbing surface area. You have to strengthen your stops on the end of your snares or heavier shock loads by 'yotes, etc, can pull them right off.

7x7 is good cable to use in live capture as it's more pliable. The stiffer 1x19 is more apt to unravel in short lengths. The strength of a cable is the synergy of the cables working together. Separate strands and they become more susceptible to breaking by twisting or biting.

When I reference information, I speak about animals caught over a longer period or higher in numbers. An average snare person only snaring a few dozen animals a year could perceivably have completely different results, but the records and statistics become more accurate given a higher number of animals taken. It's entirely possible to have 20 coyotes caught in a compression spring assisted cam lock using 5/64 1x19 and 11 feet of cable...and have 15 of them alive. Snare 500 'yotes and the statistics will become very accurate and guaranteed you won't see near 75% alive like in the above scenario. I can flip a coin and have it come up the same 5 times in a row, but how about 200 times?

Snareguy-

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2003, 08:35:42 AM »

I do like it when some one applies a word or so that immediately clarifies a point; I don't like it when it isn't me that comes up with the word :lol:

Cam-locks are true cams just says it best. In the interest of those young uns that maybe following; the cam lock has a radius (smooth curve) that becomes progressively tighter on the cable with force. The Amberg gripping surface is cut on a diagonal, more of an all or none deal (I think).

The Ambergs are more narrow and one might predict have less gripping (I can't tell the difference on the line anyhow). The Ambergs have a longer arm which is bent specifically to facilitate the tensioning springs (More leverage?

?)

I'm getting the feeling that this is closer to a "chocolate vs. Vanilla" issue. For sure one of the systems is probably better. It appears from the other posts that these differences are very close. For coyotes I agree that either will do just fine. For other critters it appears that there maybe / are significant advantages of the cam-lock over the Amberg.

I taught myself to snare and have Paveks book. I too dismissed loading snares for coyote work. I am going to re-visit the loading issue to see if in fact I done went and learned something useful.

Now while we have a good thread going, I have another question; do you fellows find any problems with B.A.D. "S" hooks performance when a tensioning spring is added? I saw on another thread that they had to change to lower(?) poundage B.A.D. s when they incorporated springs. How say you?

Snareman · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2003, 03:49:37 PM »

Hello Wackyquacker!

For the most part, the average snareman won't know the difference in effectiveness between both dispatch locks. That's why I emphasized the higher number factor displaying more correct statistics in the long run. I also mentioned I believed if both locks were put the test side by side, the cam lock's superiority would only be a few more percentage points. I can't recall the % of coyotes that were put down in the study, but it was around 94 to 97%. It's hard to improve upon that.

Once you learn to load a snare properly, you will never go back. Leonard doesn't even load his snares any more. I think he knew about and showed in his book, but personally, he doesn't do it. I have never set a snare that wasn't loaded in years.

Break-a-ways are a good tool. They allow the snare to close all the way, unlike a deer stop. When the snare can close all the way, the chances of leg catching your target is possible. The extra 3 to 5 animals you catch by the foot will go a ways to pay the gas bill! When using a compression spring, it makes it necessary to extract more force to open up the break-a-way. When the pull is on, the spring acts as a cushion and the force necessary to make the BAD open must be greater. Also, the longer you snare cable is, the higher the BAD you should go with as the canine is extracting more dynamic load which each extra foot he's allowed to pull.

Snareguy-

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2003, 05:22:42 PM »

Alrighty, so how about a description of just what a well loaded coyote snare looks like. I'm always interested in learning new and apparently useful stuff. :-)