Author Topic: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould  (Read 2406 times)

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Offline lance

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2009, 02:59:09 PM »
 Tim,can i come over and watch the mould process?
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Offline Double D

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2009, 03:32:31 PM »
Check with some of the rental outfits and see if they rent metal detectors... or try here http://www.kellycodetectors.com/preowned/scratchdent.htm

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2009, 03:32:55 PM »
    
I usually get off work about now, so it's the perfect time to take a pot shot at my favorite cannon gooroos. ;D

 Ahhh... so them were you two in the back of the conference room, measuring the water cooler bottle for some strange reason ("Hey Mike, ya think they'll ever make these out of plastic?"). I knew we had met, and your "magic bullet" theory is makin' more sense to me now. ;)

 All joking aside, thanks for your reasoned 'splaination of how you determined what happened with your bolts.

Still though..... 90% of the mass up front, drag stabilized via nothing more than that little band/pocket at the rear?  :-\

     Ah, so that's how you can zing us with such regularity!  We both worked those hours in the mid 80s for Sundstrand Aviation in North Denver.  You learned to stay awake there in order to stay alive.  THAT was a REAL FACTORY!  They had a couple hundred thousand 2 X 4 wooden blocks about 4" long on end as a floor surface.  They were so loaded with cutting oil and black filth in our area, (precision grinding), that if you ever fell and landed on that floor, you needed to pitch your clothes in the dumpster at the end of your shift and drive home in your underwear!!  That oily, black slime would never come out!  

     About your last sentence, we both agree with you there and don't think that little void would do the stabilization trick reliably.  GGaskill posted a pic of his 30mm minie-type slug recently and we like the looks of it much more than our "lightweight bolt".  Just maybe a composite projectile could provide the best of both worlds, first a heavy, cast-lead, ballistic nose and, second a tough, thin, smooth, steel lower part which could be close to bore size, but would not expand and yet be light enough to be very sensitive to air pressure, just as a lightly constructed weather vane is.  I'll work up a sketch or two and post as a mod later.

     Tim, we are glad to hear you are getting back into the shop.  Who knows, we could really come up with something really accurate if our members don't hold those slightly wild ideas back.  Keep going Tim, we know you have a gold-mine of raw material in your shop.

     Yes, we will be going back to the northern plains to make more discoveries, but we will be there more often to add artifacts to the landscape.  Gary, I think all the heavy powder charge bolts I shot in 2005 are lying on the slope of the 120 foot tall, final backstop hill which we saw last time out at around 3,100 to 3,300 yards, almost the 2 mile mark.  Are you up for another hike?

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

     P.S.   Thanks for the tip DD, but our good friend Bruce has 3 or 4 and goes out gold and artifact hunting all the time.  We just went out with him to try some new loads in his 45-70 and a 300 win. mag so maybe we could try to see if there are any bolts hiding under those large cactus patches out there.  Good idea.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2009, 03:55:23 PM »
   
I usually get off work about now, so it's the perfect time to take a pot shot at my favorite cannon gooroos. ;D

 Ahhh... so them were you two in the back of the conference room, measuring the water cooler bottle for some strange reason ("Hey Mike, ya think they'll ever make these out of plastic?"). I knew we had met, and your "magic bullet" theory is makin' more sense to me now. ;)

 All joking aside, thanks for your reasoned 'splaination of how you determined what happened with your bolts.

Still though..... 90% of the mass up front, drag stabilized via nothing more than that little band/pocket at the rear?  :-\

     Ah, so that's how you can zing us with such regularity!  We both worked those hours in the mid 80s for Sundstrand Aviation in North Denver.  You learned to stay awake there in order to stay alive.  THAT was a REAL FACTORY!  They had a couple hundred thousand 2 X 4 wooden blocks about 4" long on end as a floor surface.  They were so loaded with cutting oil and black filth in our area, (precision grinding), that if you ever fell and landed on that floor, you needed to pitch your clothes in the dumpster at the end of your shift and drive home in your underwear!!  That oily, black slime would never come out!  

     About your last sentence, we both agree with you there and don't think that little void would do the stabilization trick reliably.  GGaskill posted a pic of his 30mm minie-type slug recently and we like the looks of it much more than our "lightweight bolt".  Just maybe a composite projectile could provide the best of both worlds, first a heavy, cast-lead, ballistic nose and, second a tough, thin, smooth, steel lower part which could be close to bore size, but would not expand and yet be light enough to be very sensitive to air pressure, just as a lightly constructed weather vane is.  I'll work up a sketch or two and post as a mod later.

     Tim, we are glad to hear you are getting back into the shop.  Who knows, we could really come up with something really accurate if our members don't hold those slightly wild ideas back.  Keep going Tim, we know you have a gold-mine of raw material in your shop.

     Yes, we will be going back to the northern plains to make more discoveries, but we will be there more often to add artifacts to the landscape.  Gary, I think all the heavy powder charge bolts I shot in 2005 are lying on the slope of the 120 foot tall, final backstop hill which we saw last time out at around 3,100 to 3,300 yards, almost the 2 mile mark.  Are you up for another hike?
Regards,

Mike and Tracy

    


You betcha is 9:00 am tomorrow OK ? We need a foward observer behind the 1200 yd hill or so .

I can march backwards for two miles are you kidding me ! That way I wont even need to turn around to come back . What is the Max. range for those cannons on the fly agian ? ;D

A few shots should be observable from down range .... load the Brookes . I'll need 25 minuites to get down range and hide . Fire a loud blank for a warning ,I'll scoot up under something and in 3.5 mins fire for effect ! Are we there yet ? ;D

Semper Fi Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2009, 04:16:50 PM »
Tim,can i come over and watch the mould process?

Before you ask, the answer is yes.
Saturday I'll be doing a bunch of things, some machining on a punch for fiber gas-checks for ASSRA competition, some work on the deck above the shop, likely to hit Blacksburg or C'burg yard sale-ing in the AM, maybe some gardening, and roughing out some bodies for the dies.
Sunday afternoon would be a good time if I get the die bodies done.  You know my number!  ;)
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2009, 04:22:41 PM »
   
/...     Tim, we are glad to hear you are getting back into the shop.  Who knows, we could really come up with something really accurate if our members don't hold those slightly wild ideas back.  Keep going Tim, we know you have a gold-mine of raw material in your shop.
...

Ahhh yes, it is good to get back to machining.  I am NOT a machinist, so a lot of what I do requires that I make the tooling and learn how to do each process the hard way.  I am fortunate in having friends that are tool and die makers that talk me through the processes - and then I go muck it up and learn it.

??? " ... a gold-mine of raw material in your shop ...."   means "a shop that is "full of it"!   ;D ;D

Life is good.  Will likely have moulds for 4 or 5 different bullets when we're done.

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Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2009, 09:49:40 PM »
 M&T

 I love those old wood floors. My high school machine shop had one. I asked the teacher why they made them that way; he said "so you dummies can't crack yer heads on see-ment." (he went on to explain the shock-deadening quality). Some older sections of other shops I've worked in had them too. I've lost more than one ball bearing in the cracks between the blocks!

 A composite slug as you suggest should work good. Maybe lead cast directly into the end of a tube, or a lead ball crimped into one.

 And... If you want to reduce base drag....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/base-bleed.htm
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2009, 01:01:21 AM »
VERY interesting article.

On the SWAGING forum here at GBO are several threads (a few years ago now) on bullet design of high ballistic coefficeints - cast bullets at that.  Jay Downs and I designed a HBC cast bullet and did a group buy on castboolets forum.  But it was here where - although it was the swaging forum - they humored me and discussed at length from an engineering perspective the effects of each shape of nose, tail and transitions (secant and tangent) from the curved ogive to the cylindrical portions of the bullet.

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2009, 12:31:54 PM »
Dug out a bar of T-6061 (I think) that I picked up a few years ago for moulds.  3/4 x 1-1/2 x 12'

Tonight I'll make 10 or so mould halfs - cut off, finish the outside.

Making moulds will be next week as I've got to order the reamers and the dowel pins.

Looking for alternative ways of doin' it ....
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Offline lance

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2009, 03:37:19 PM »
  The other day i asked Tim if he could make a mould that would cast a Quinlivan.   
   My camera is broke, so can someone help out and post a picture of it?
   
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2009, 04:37:33 PM »
Hint:  this is the designer of the projo.  I've never seen one but I understand it has an unusual shape!

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2009, 02:48:51 AM »
Lance -  What diameter on the bullet?  (CRS syndrome)
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Offline lance

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2009, 10:23:51 AM »
 Tim, .980 solid base, figure we can test a few solids, then route out the base on a few and see if there's any improvement.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »
.980 it is.

I can't beleive that NO ONE has chased out Quinlivan.  I did a google search but came up with his first name and that he died in 1907.  Didn't come up with any pix.  Shall we take up a collection for your camera repair so we could see the pix in your book?  ;)
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Offline DoktorD

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2009, 12:02:17 PM »
I tried dredging through the internet for over an hour and came up without pictures also  ???
I got that he made/developed some kind of pointed (possibly steel pointed) shells and that they were a significant contributing factor to the sinking of the USS Keokuk near Fort Sumter.

You got me interested!!
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Offline lance

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »
 Tim and DoktorD
 My book shows 3 pix of the Quinlivan.
 The camera won't power up, guess i'll have to take the book to Tim's house next weekend.
 DoktorD, you are closer than Tim on the info.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »
Dug out a bar of T-6061 (I think) that I picked up a few years ago for moulds.  3/4 x 1-1/2 x 12'

Looking for alternative ways of doin' it ....

 Just a note from the peanut gallery - WD-40 is an excellent and conveniently packaged cutting fluid for aluminum (I think you noted that you were having finish problems).
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2009, 12:49:42 AM »
Certainly worth a try.
We (they) usually use methyl alcohol at work.
I think the issue I had was from tooling - setup and too flimsy a boring bar (the thin carbide tipped one from a cheap set).  I'm finishing out a set of tool holders (1-1/4 OD adapters that will fit into a block toolpost into which I can put any of the good boring bars I have.  Pix follow.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2009, 06:10:27 PM »
Hey Cat, when I dug this photo out of my files, the first thing that caught my attention was the "projectile" on the right in the foreground. I just knew this would be the perfect model for the experimental bolt you're planning on machining, by gosh it even has a proppeler in the front to give it an added aerodynamic boost (no doubt powered by a miniature steam engine); Then to my chagrin, when I enlarged the photo I could read the printing on the side that said: FLOATING Torpedo, darn it anyway, the best layed plans of ...............

Seriously, this is evidently a photo of Confederate ordnance amunition, you can see the large 600-PDR Blakely stores (misspelled BLAKELEY on the items) in the back. I'm guessing that this is a photo taken after Federal troops captured Charleston, South Carolina, which can be seen printed on some of the projectiles; but why are some of these ordnance stores painted with descriptions, is it for Federal reference purposes?






"12.75-inch Blakely seacoast rifle. Total length and weight are unknown. Rifling is four-groove Scott with right-hand twist. Two of these rifles and their carriages were delivered at Wilmington NC in August 1863 for installation at Fort Fisher. Before they could be mounted, General Beauregard requisitioned them for the defense of Charleston SC. Unfamiliar with the characteristics and purpose of an air chamber, the Confederates burst one tube at the first fire. When John Mercer Brooke deduced the air chamber's purpose, the second tube was properly loaded and served at Frazier's Wharf while the first tube was repaired. Both were later blown up to prevent capture. The breech of the first rifle and the chase of the second are pictured here."
The above paragraph is taken from the Encyclopedia of Civil War Artillery on The Civil War Artillery Page Website.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

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Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2009, 08:20:22 PM »
We (they) usually use methyl alcohol at work.

 I'd think that would be hazardous.  ???
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2009, 12:38:01 AM »
We (they) usually use methyl alcohol at work.

 I'd think that would be hazardous.  ???

No problems if sprayed onto the work in progress.  Self-correcting problem if consumed.  :o
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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2009, 12:42:22 AM »
BoomJ -

I'd seen that picture some time ago but never enlarged it to see the detail - thanks for posting it!

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2009, 04:17:01 AM »
BoomJ -

I'd seen that picture some time ago but never enlarged it to see the detail - thanks for posting it!



Tim,

 I don't know which pic you're talking about; the second pic is probably familiar to most of us , its from the well travelled website: "The Civil War Artillery Page". The first pic (of Southern ammunition), I had never seen before a couple days ago; the only reason I posted the photo of the parts of the two purposely destroyed (so they wouldn't fall into the hands of Federal Forces) CSA 12.75 Blakely rifles, was because of the Blakely 600 lb. shells that are shown in the rear of the the ammunition photo.

Anyway, if you save the ammo pic to your pc photo storage, and use the zoom feature, you'll be able to see the large ring (in front of what appears to be an M1841 6 Pdr.) that has printed on it, " BLAKELEY[sic] GUN" BAND; does anyone know what this band was used for?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2009, 03:10:22 PM »
(The top pix -  I hadn't looked into the DETAIL in it!)

Ordered some 3/16 x 3/4" dowel pins and two reamers today.  Should be here in one or two days.

Need to finish out the boring bar holders before the weekend.

Lance - paper patching is a cool idea - I've done that with Lyman 12ga slugs for a 18" bbl single shot with no sights.  Got so I could hit a brick at 35 paces (yards) quite regularly.  That gives us the capability of increasing the diamter by .006 increments!  Interesting experiment in accuracy.

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Offline lance

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2009, 03:59:57 PM »
 Tim, glad to hear that i still have a few Cool Ideals.

 I turned down a piece of scrap to .980, just so i could play with the different paper patches i have on hand.

 That's why this will be the perfect bullet.  It will always give us something to do or try different.

 
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Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2009, 10:09:10 PM »
We (they) usually use methyl alcohol at work.

 I'd think that would be hazardous.  ???

No problems if sprayed onto the work in progress.  Self-correcting problem if consumed.  :o

 I don't deny that I been 'lit' a few times with methyl's sister ethyl, but methyl is classified as a HAZMAT Class 3 (liquid phase flash point below 100 F) flammable.

 Same as gasoline...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2009, 12:00:09 AM »
Won't deny facts (although it's not atypical human behavior to do so on occasion) but I wonder what the classification of WD40 is? 
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Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2009, 01:17:04 AM »
Won't deny facts (although it's not atypical human behavior to do so on occasion) but I wonder what the classification of WD40 is? 

 The MSDS .pdf won't open for me on the WD-40 website but IIRC, it's the same as kerosine. I'll check my book at work tomorrow...
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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2009, 06:05:25 AM »
Watched them use it this morning - boring aluminum, running, flood with a squirt of M.A., cut.  Good lube.  I guess that it's been done this way for at least 10 years on 3 lathes without any problem.  Hmmmm.  Not used on steel.

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Offline Victor3

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Re: OK, we're in the design stage for a 1" projo mould
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2009, 11:23:08 PM »
Watched them use it this morning - boring aluminum, running, flood with a squirt of M.A., cut.  Good lube.  I guess that it's been done this way for at least 10 years on 3 lathes without any problem.  Hmmmm.  Not used on steel.

 Well, if it works it works. There are safer alternatives though. A search didn't bring up any info for me on it being used as a cutting fluid. I did find that it's corrosive to aluminum.  :-\

 BTW, WD-40 is classified as HAZMAT 2. Same as kerosine, which used to be the most common aluminum cutting fluid.
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