Author Topic: I like this carriage  (Read 1980 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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I like this carriage
« on: March 28, 2009, 07:53:59 PM »
Don't know whether it is repro or an oldie, but it is giving me ideas, since I'm always in need of carriages I can use for shooting.  This one looks very functional, and simple enough even I might be able to weld one up.

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1517855545034296415upgGzY

Offline DoktorD

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 09:12:11 PM »
Looks pretty simple yet practical to me! No trunnion caps I see... do you think its just 'cause its for display or thats the way its designed? Kinda looks as though it would work because of that trunnion plate angle... Recoil of the gun would almost push the trunnions right into where they sit.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 12:17:33 AM »
Quote
do you think its just 'cause its for display or thats the way its designed?

I think it was designed that way.  I've seen that a lot in iron "garrison" carriages.  I guess the iron didn't flex as much as wood and you don't get the "bounce" that could dislocate the tube.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 03:57:45 AM »
I had the impression that the iron garrison carriages like this were peace time carriages that really were not meant for firing.  Supposedly the regular carriages were put away out of the weather. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline KABAR2

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2009, 04:11:50 AM »
I had the impression that the iron garrison carriages like this were peace time carriages that really were not meant for firing.  Supposedly the regular carriages were put away out of the weather. 

Yes that is what I have found also,  although I don't see why you couldn't build something along these lines as a test bed,

infact you could make it adjustable by having bolt on trunnion hard points of different sizes for different tubes, also you could set

it up so the width was adjustable to meet the needs of the tube being used.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2009, 04:19:34 AM »
Quote
really were not meant for firing.

Good comment, I've seen words like that too.  

My personal opinion is that no government would go to the expense of building purely decorative carriages in quantities like we see of iron garrison carriages.  Those carriages have to be capable of having a tube fired from them or they would not exist IMO.  I suspect they did hold up much better over time and would also allow the piece to be ready to fire if needed.  If extended firing such in a siege was to be done, maybe they would be re-mounted on wooden carriages.  For storage, tubes were normally laid on wooden sleepers just off the ground.

But since I wasn't there "back then" I really don't have any hard facts, just speculation.  Further proof one way or the other might be had by looking at whether the iron garrison carriages were provided with a good, usable elevating mechanism or not, even if it was merely a transom and a quoin.

Offline Victor3

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2009, 10:58:16 PM »
Quote
really were not meant for firing.

My personal opinion is that no government would go to the expense of building purely decorative carriages in quantities like we see of iron garrison carriages.  Those carriages have to be capable of having a tube fired from them or they would not exist IMO.  

 You may be right, but looking at the somewhat flimsy designs I've seen (including this one), first thing that comes to mind is 'cart', not carriage.
 Most have decorative features leading me to believe they may have been meant for more than just utility. But then, fancy style was more commonly employed back then, in even mundane items.

 Look at the thin material and light cross-members. Note the diameter of the axles through the wheels. Just doesn't look strong enough to be fired.  :-\
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 02:15:13 AM »
This sounds like a good question for 'ole Bob Smith if we ever find him again.  England seems to be where we find a lot of those skeleton-type iron garrison carriages.  I think Bob would be able to find out whether they were considered capable of having a cannon fired from them or not.  If the carriage in question was made of wrought iron, the answer would be yes, simply because wrought was much more expensive than cast, and you only used wrought iron when you needed more durability than the somewhat brittle cast iron.  I've got a small carriage like those we're discussing, maybe I'll scrape some paint off and try to determine whether mine is cast or wrought, but I've always assumed it was made of cast iron.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 03:27:31 AM »
I'm not sure of the qualifications of the author of this book, didn't spend any time reading other than to see it had someting about the iron carriages.  I'm putting it here just to show how anyone can write anything, I don't agree with what he says about iron carriages being better in battle or whatever, they had to be worse than wooden ones, if cast iron anyway, when struck by shot.

I'll keep looking, and again, I don't advocate this authors' view.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LeYSxhK62wUC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=iron+garrison+carriage&source=bl&ots=Mxr_C0jVjo&sig=uR52ka3BJv89YKZiyIkdHeaHQXM&hl=en&ei=x8bQSZKGGZjtlQfU1ZHmCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA172,M1

Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 03:38:24 AM »
Here's a nice drawing of a "Wrought iron garrison standing carriage" which if I interpreted the text correctly, was intended to be the only carriage used, and certainly would be used for firing.  The important difference is that this carriage is made of wrought iron, NOT CAST IRON.

It is hard to tell when looking at photos provided on the web, of artillery here and there, whether a carriage is made of cast or wrought iron.  Very close-up photos can sometimes reveal which, especially  if the carriage isn't painted, since wrought iron usually shows telltale "pattern" corrosion as you can see when looking at the w.i. hoops shrunk onto tubes of other materials, as in unpainted Blakely and Parrott rifles.

http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/gun/rifled4a.htm



Offline A.Roads

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 09:31:58 AM »
Iron Garrison Standing Carriages were made of cast iron & were used in place of wooden carriages which were then stored away. The cast iron carriages were perfectly capable of being used but would shatter if hit by a shot & so in times when conflict was possible the wooden carriages were taken from store & brought into play. With the 'arms race' guns eventually became too heavy for wooden carriages to be practical & so iron carriages were used, on traversing slides/platforms etc. These later carriages, introduced in the 1860s, were constructed of wrought iron.
Adrian 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 12:11:30 PM »
This is basically just a reiteration of Adrian's post, but I think that it's also true that quite a few of the examples of this type of iron garrison carriage that we now see dislpayed are contemporary reproductions that were chosen for aesthetic reasons coupled with their being less costly than some other choices, even though they sometimes don't match the time period of the guns mounted on them.

 http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol036dh.html

"As will be described shortly, our gun came ashore in Natal after its naval service. This explains the iron garrison carriage on which it stands. Guns of the period were mounted on field, siege or garrison carriages. These latter, being made of cast iron, were liable to shatter if hit by enemy fire, so they were not used in action. For every iron garrison carriage, a wooden carriage was also issued, and these wooden carriages were used in the event of war. The wood used was elm, which did not splinter if hit. Ships’ guns were normally on wooden carriages.
The use of wooden carriages for land service in wartime is shown in illustrations of the war in the Crimea. There are several good prints of muzzle loaders on these carriages in action during the siege of Sebastopol.
Wheels less than 20 inches (51 cm) were called trucks. The Pietermaritzburg gun is on iron trucks. Ships’ guns were on wooden trucks. These avoided damage to the decks, they were lighter, and they were easier to repair.
The weight of this carriage is inscribed on it thus, ‘16-2--0’, which signifies 16 cwt 2 qtrs 0 lbs (838 kg). The equivalent wooden carriage weighed 11.5 cwt (584 kg). Disadvantages of these heavy iron carriages were the difficulty in elevating and traversing, and the difficulty of repair.
‘No 21’ may refer to the type, or the serial number of the carriage. The designation ‘12 pr’ appears on the side frame, and also on the transom (joining the two sides). The arrow denoting Government ownership also appears on the transom beneath the breech.
Note that there are no cap squares holding the trunnions in place. They rest in deep housings, and the weight of the gun made it impossible for it to jump out on being fired. A 12-pounder smooth bore should not be compared directly with a 12-pounder breech loader, but nevertheless it is interesting to note that this smooth bore weighs 32 cwt (1 626 kg), compared with the Boer War Royal Horse Artillery’s breech loader which weighed 6 cwt.(305 kg)".



The photo above is of the Halifax, Nova Scotia 'Noon Day Gun', but it would be very similar (it is a British Blomefield pattern cannon) to the gun and carriage described in the South African Military Historical Journal.




Cannons along the Seine in Paris, France.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2009, 05:35:14 PM »
I'll add one to the collection.


Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 07:08:55 PM »
I'll add one to the collection.



Hey, DD, I could have posted this South African cannon, but my pic doesn't have someones pretty wife standing behind the cannon. This gun is big, I'd guess a 32-pounder, but at the least a 24 pdr.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2009, 12:00:32 AM »
I'm going to take an educated guess that the carriage posted by DD is made of cast iron, with the sideplates each cast in one piece.  I'm getting the impression that a wrought iron carriage would use smaller parts bolted or riveted together.  I think that's one way you can tell if these are cast or wrought. 

I was thinking the skeleton carriages posted by BoomJ and DD were made from the same pattern, but closer inspection reveals some minor differences, so they are very close but not the same design.  The DD carriage seems to have an extra vertical support about 2/3 of the way back, or if the other has one also, it is in a little different location.

For wrought iron, you need fairly massive machinery to hammer-forge the hot metal into a particular shape.  Given the size of the sideplates on this, I'm guessing a die or hammer face the size of the whole thing would be ridiculous, so I'm left with cast iron as the only possibility.

The US mortar and seacoast gun carriages of the Civil War are kind of an exception as they used large plates of wrought iron, say 1/2 inch or so thick, and there must have been many ironworks in the US that were capable of producing that by the end of the Civil War.

Offline A.Roads

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2009, 12:23:36 AM »
"I'm getting the impression that a wrought iron carriage would use smaller parts bolted or rivited together."

Yes wrought iron carriages were made up of components, standing carriages tended to be skeleton frame & sliding carriages were a frame with plates, initially a single plate & then double plated. The most commonly encountered would be double plated slide carriages.

I was involved in a project in Oman where we ordered a cast iron standing carriage from a foundry in the UK.
Adrian 


Offline Double D

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2009, 01:58:36 AM »
12PDR



Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2009, 04:31:50 AM »
12PDR

I can see the 12 p on the rail of the carriage; for some reason in the other photo the gun just appears huge. The Halifax gun is a 12-pounder that was bored and sleeved with a steel liner so that it would be safe to fire salutes out of.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 04:38:35 AM »
Actually marked 12 Pr.   If you look closely at the right side of that picture you can clearly see a mould line for the casting.

Offline lance

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 07:46:07 AM »
 I don't know if you are collecting pictures on this topic, but i ran across this photo taken in 1862 at Fort Pulaski, thought i'd share.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 09:15:39 AM »
     Lance,   It looks like you found the war-time photo of the famous "Breech" in the Southeast Salient in Ft. Pulaski which faced the Federal "breeching batteries", (McClellan), along Lazaretto Creek on Tybee Island.  You probably found the rare exception to the usual practice of iron garrison carriages and wood fighting carriages.  We don't really know if that particular 32 or 42 pounder gun was fought or not, but chances are that it was, at least initially, as the Confederates only had 10 or 12 guns that could bear on those nasty Federal breeching batteries.  War-time photos do not show any iron carriages up on the Terraplien where the largest guns were placed en-barbette.  Perhaps the extra protection afforded by the casemate walls was deemed sufficient cast iron carriage protection, so the casemated guns could be fought from them?

     The breech, shown clearly in your photo was the direct cause of the Confederate capitulation, because the main powder magazine with approx. 40,000 pounds of BP was diagonally across the parade from the breech.  Gen. Quincy Gilmore's breeching rifles, especially the 64 pdr. and 84 pdr. James rifle conversion guns had already struck and smashed the brick traverse protecting the door to the magazine when CSA Col. Olmstead, Commander of Ft. Pulaski, decided to call it quits 30 hours after the bombardment started.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike


The way the area of the "Breech" in the Southeast Salient looked several months after the 1862 battle after repair by Federal Troops and the way it looks today.



The Northeast Salient today showing how the embrasure in Lance's photo looked from outside the fort before the seven foot thick walls were breeched.



     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 01:33:28 PM »
None of us are going to be getting our gold detective shields (at least I'm not) any time soon, I just noticed something that I'm embarrassed to admit I totally missed when it was first posted (by Douglas). The something missed, relates to a certain South African piece of antique ordnance that has been referred to in a military journal that was also posted on this thread.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 01:54:20 PM »
I always wondered what the history of that gun was...Thanks for pointing it out.

Offline lance

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 02:08:25 PM »
 Mike and Tracy, and Cannonmn, i only added the 1862 Fort pulaski carriage picture, because there was some talk about- if any might have been used to fire a gun from. I know the picture is no proof, but it makes the case for one maybe being used.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »
I always wondered what the history of that gun was...Thanks for pointing it out.

That's right, the cannon and carriage that are the subjects of the SA Military History Societies Journal Vol. 3 No. 6 that I posted, are the exact same cannon and carriage that are in the photos that you posted; I didn't get it till I re-eyeballed the numbers stamped on the trunnion face.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 04:05:36 PM »
Mike and Tracy, and Cannonmn, i only added the 1862 Fort pulaski carriage picture, because there was some talk about- if any might have been used to fire a gun from. I know the picture is no proof, but it makes the case for one maybe being used.

Lance,

 This is a photo of a 24-pounder smoothbore mounted on iron garrison carriage firing a salute at one of the British forts on Malta. These carriages were made with the intention that cannons mounted on them would be fired. I also think that Cannonmn is probably right in that these types of carriages placed in certain settings, like these on the parapet of a fort, might have indeed been intended for use in battle.



http://www.wirtartna.org/od_menu/SalutingBattery/tabid/259/Default.aspx
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline lance

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 04:29:40 PM »
 Boom J, That's a better picture than mine and makes the case even stronger they were used in battle. It's just a guess on my part,but i would say the one in my pic was used until it got knocked out. Thanks for sharing.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline Double D

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 03:20:25 AM »
I'll add one to the collection.



I sent that link on the history of this cannon to a friend in Belgium who visited this cannon with us.  He pointed out the size of this 12 PDR and how big a 32 PDR must be...or how about that 42 recently found in the English Channel

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: I like this carriage
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2009, 06:34:27 PM »
One of the things that I find most interesting about this CW period photo of Ft. Pulaski that Lance posted is the circumstance that the iron garrison carriage appears to have been jury rigged into being a sliding carriage. You'll notice that the carriage is missing its rear truck, and there is an inclined wooden platform underneath it. If these observations are correct then it just goes to further demonstrate that the Confederate military forces had to improvise with whatever materials that they had on hand.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.