308 to 307

[Fred M]

Never headspace on the rim ?  That's bad news for the 45/70, the .444 Marlin, etc. ?

Well perhaps you never heared of excact case length where head
space is established to be flush with the chamber by butting the case against the end of the chamber. The cases need to be trimmed after they have stretched to the proper length.
Perhaps 45/70 and 444 cases don't stretch in a Handi  . Don't know because I don't shoot calibers like that . In a Handi ZERO head space is the name of the game.  Obviously you never heard of that.

[Badnews Bob]

I've pnly heard some of this thats why I am reading this so close. Listen and learn ask a question.

[Fred M]

Handi operates just fine with a 308 rimless case. Is the nut behind the butt loose?

Except for when your handi decides it want's to give you fits and start shooting 14" groups. You of all people can attest to that phenomenon.

There's nothing wrong with a little bit of experimentation, unless your the kind of guy who greatly fears the risk of proving himself wrong in the face of others

The last place I be looking would be changing the rimless to a rimmed case if a rifle shoots 14" groups. Your example is inappropriate. Never had a rifle that shot 14" groups, period.

Your innuendo is in poor taste, shame on you. Improve your manners, baiting people is not welcome here.

[sooter]

Did John - "Deadeye47", pass away in the line of duty?

[R.W.Dale]

OH WELL Fred! I guess the shoe doesn't fit too well when placed on the other foot does it? kinda the pot calling the kettle black wouldn't you say....Let those without sin cast the first stone.

Some sensitve and very friendly posts by none other than Fred M

The above quote is simply silly and reflexes no knowledge.

Is the nut behind the butt loose?

There is no point in trying to provide information to people who don't know how to read and even see.

and that's just from page one of your profile

How's that 257 shootin for ya?

[quickdtoo]

Did John - "Deadeye47", pass away in the line of duty?

You can read about John in the Gone But Not Forgotten forum near the top of the index page.

Tim

[FW Conch]

  It's good to hear from you sooter !  If you can see your way to post some pictures of your 6.5x444 sometime, rifle & cases, there are still many of us out here who would like to see them!  There's just something about dropping a "rimmed" cartridge into a chamber & having it "stop on the inside of the rim"
when it hits the recess in the breech face. The only thing better is having it eject over your shoulder after you hit your Target with one shot! The whole thing just gives me a "puffy" !     Jim 

[LaOtto222]

I am going to jump back in here one more time - When I am talking accuracy of a rimmed cartridge head spacing off the rim vs a none rimmed cartridge head spacing off the shoulder; I am not talking a great difference. I am talking tenths of an inch, not inches.

Accuracy is a relative thing - Some people are perfectly satisfied with 1 MOA while the next guy would be heart felt at such accuracy. I depends on the application too. A deer hunter maybe perfectly fine with 2 MOA accuracy because his longest shot is going to be maybe 200 yards, but more than likely 100 yards or under; so it would be fine for his application. A varmint hunter would be sick with 2 MOA because a 300 yard shot at a PD would mean more misses that hits. A bench rest shooter will not even have a chance at winning with .5 MOA, but a varmint hunter could be perfectly satisfied with .5 MOA.

When you have a rimmed cartridge that head spaces off the shoulder you are in effect making it a none rimmed case; accuracy wise. To get top accuracy the bullet must be lined up to the center of the bore, have little or no run out and the powder loads must be consistent from one load to the next. Bench rest shooters go to great pains to prep their cases to ensure there is no bullet run out and the bullet lines up with the center of the bore. I am talking turned necks as part of this case prep. Turned necks aid in the centering of the bullet to the bore. When a rimmed case sets in the chamber, the case will rest in the bottom of the chamber with all of the space at the top. This puts the bullet at the bottom of the chamber as well as putting the bullet out of line with the bore. When a case head spaces off the shoulder, the shoulder aids in centering the bullet to the bore. The more a chamber is over sized the worse the condition - no matter if it is rimmed or rimless. Once a case is fired sized to the chamber and the shoulder of the chamber is concentric with the bore, the shoulder of the case will center in the chamber, thus centered to the bore. When you have a rimmed case that still head spaces off the rim, you have not corrected this condition of a case laying in the bottom of the chamber.

Straight walled cases do not have a shoulder and can not center to a shoulder, no matter what. Straight walled cases have never been known for their out standing accuracy. Acceptable accuracy to a big game hunter - no doubt. Remember I am talking less than an inch MOA difference if both rimmed and none rimmed are carefully loaded.

Compare a 30 carbine to a 308 Winchester. I know the 30 carbine is not a rimmed case, but it is a straight walled case. Just because a case has a rim does not make it in accurate, it is that it lays at the bottom of the chamber, just as a 30 carbine will do. Which one (30 carbine or 308) would you expect to have better accuracy shooting the same bullets and same action?

It is not the fact that a case has a rim or not - It is how it sets in a chamber. The rimmed case head spacing off the shoulder should have the same accuracy potential as a none rimmed case. A rimmed case that head spaces off the rim will not have things lined up as well as if it was head spaced off the shoulder. Even a new rimless case that is not perfectly sized to a chamber will ride up into the shoulder a little and help center it up. If there is excessive head space then it will not center very well, but you also do not get very good accuracy.

Remember I am not talking great differences, just little ones. A bench rest shooter would not be caught dead with a rimmed case at the firing line. Not since the 222 Remington has been discovered to be a great shooter. Just too much of a disadvantage to be shooting a rimmed case with no advantages.

I still like the rimmed cases in a break open gun. I own 6 H&R barrels and all but one is rimmed. I own 6 barrels for my T/C and all but one are rimmed. If given a choice between a 307 and a 308, I would pick the 307 for a Handi rifle. I have not bought the break open rifles for their great accuracy, I bought them because I like single shot rifles and their simplicity. To me the rimmed case just goes hand in hand with the break open rifle. I would own a bunch of Ruger #1's, if they did not cost so much, but then the rimmed case notion would evaporate with those rifles. That is just my preferences. I realize that is not everyone's.

Good Luck and Good Shooting to everyone.

[FW Conch]

LaOtto222,  "YEAH"  What you said !  I was beginning to think I was the only one out here with this train of

thought !  Lets not forget that "ranger76" got this one started & I hope we didn't hijack his topic completely,

but if we did I humbly apologise & beg forgiveness.      Jim

[LaOtto222]

Me too, me too. 

I apologize too. Sorry if I got off subject.

[Fred M]

I am not a fan of rimmed cases, but I do have one 375Win in a Ruger #3. My Hand loads are fitted and you can feel the the case being snugged up, I load it to max rated  psi and get great 3 shot accuracy at 1-1/2" at 250yrds  with 225gr Hornady. I do know how to hand load a rimmed cartridge. Of course the #3 is not a Handi. My loads would lock up a Handi.

For anyone feeling my previous comments above are wrong please answer the following questions.
1.The 45 ACP cartridge has neither a rim nor a shoulder, where do you think it head spaces.

2. What is the most important step in handloading this cartridge
for super accuracy.

[R.W.Dale]

Well perhaps you never heared of excact case length where head
space is established to be flush with the chamber by butting the case against the end of the chamber. The cases need to be trimmed after they have stretched to the proper length.
Perhaps 45/70 and 444 cases don't stretch in a Handi  Huh. Don't know because I don't shoot calibers like that Embarrassed. In a Handi ZERO head space is the name of the game.  Obviously you never heard of that.

For anyone feeling my previous comments above are wrong please answer the following questions.
1.The 45 ACP cartridge has neither a rim nor a shoulder, where do you think it head spaces.

2. What is the most important step in handloading this cartridge
for super accuracy.

 There's nothing in the above posts that reflect any knowledge whatsoever as to what's inside a straight walled non bottlenecked rifle chamber. Do straight walled rifle and revolver cartridges have a step at the end of the chamber to headspace the case mouth against?  NO NO they do not

My Hand loads are fitted and you can feel the the case being snugged up,

Snugged up in what?

 If you mean the chamber the only way you could possibly achieve this would be to actually put the bullet into the rifling.

Anyone who thinks a 444 45/70 or even a 375win can be headspaced on the case mouth is in NO position to give advice on this discussion.

[Fred M]

Like I said, you are another one of those guys that don't know how to read. I said 45ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
and you don't have a Ruger#3 in 375Win to know. No the bullet is not jammed into the bore and the cartridge has no headspace, not that I can measure. Now how can that be accurate

Note: I am not answering anymore of your BS. Just ask your self who is benefiting from this crap.

Happy New Year and I am out of here.

[R.W.Dale]

and you don't have a Ruger#3 in 375Win to know. No the bullet is not jammed into the bore and the cartridge has no headspace, not that I can measure. Now how can that be accurate

......because of the RIM possibly? What do you think it's on there for? Looks

Like I said, you are another one of those guys that don't know how to And quiteread. I said 45ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)

I knew exactly what you meant, my monitor didn't studder when it displayed ACP as you typed it 

No you need to learn how to read and possibly learn from OTHERS. Again Loading 45acp has absolutely NOTHING in common with a rimmed handi chambering. Your "analogy" to 45acp doesn't even remotely apply to this discussion in any conceivable way. 

[FW Conch]

Just when many had probably hoped this one had faded to page 2, this morning I was reading my 49th
edition of Lymans & found this statement - "The 45 Colt was an early offering in the Continder. Due to
lack of cylinder gap, the 45 Colt is ' improved ' when fired from a Contender rather than a revolver". (pg439)
I believe this "improved" alludes to my suggestion of " stability" mentioned earlier - anyway, I am claiming
it as just a small step in the direction of "vindication". 

Along with this I will conclude by saying, this is "the nut behind the butt" out here trying to "use his head
for something besides a hat rack"    & wishing everyone a very HAPPY NEW YEAR !  Jim

[dpe.ahoy]

While I enjoyed the read on this, I think the rudeness of a few has caused this to go down hill.  I for one learn alot when I read threads like this.  The main reason to ask questions here is to learn, not to be put down.  The only stupid question is one never asked.  DP

[R.W.Dale]

Due to
lack of cylinder gap, the 45 Colt is ' improved ' when fired from a Contender rather than a revolver". (pg439)
I believe this "improved" alludes to my suggestion of " stability" mentioned earlier - anyway, I am claiming

I'm sure the intent of this paragraph was just to mention how typical .45lc ballistics are  improved apoun  just simply by doing away with a cylinder gap.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into things not stated

[cwlongshot]

While I enjoyed the read on this, I think the rudeness of a few has caused this to go down hill.  I for one learn allot when I read threads like this.  The main reason to ask questions here is to learn, not to be put down.  The only stupid question is one never asked.  DP

 Well said, there is allot of good info here, you just need to filter thru a bit.

FW,
 I agree with Krochus, your quotation from the Lyman manual referring to the increaded performance is a direct result of a lack of a barrel/cylinder gap. Remember, in the time T/C originally chambered the 45colt, in the contender, it was the only handgun with a non vented barrel.

CW

[FW Conch]

krochus, cw - just got back from fishing ! yeah, I thought it might be too good to be true ! O well, I'll keep

plugging away, reading & absorbing , etc.            Jim

[jacksbark]

If anyone is interested in the original question posed .... yes, I have had a .308 Win. Handi barrel (a .308 Win. 22" 'bull') 'turned into' a .307 Win. by having a rim cut made on a lathe, and it was a great sucess. Too bad the 307 reamer isn't available to the retail trade. Also too bad there isn't a hand reamer/cutter to use to hand-cut the rim ... its a no-brainer job that even the novice being careful and slow could easily do. No problems arose from this - and it shoots great ... 1/2"-1 1/2" 100-150 yard 3-shot groups have been made routinely and 2" is no bother at all ... also eliminated what had been occasional extraction issues when using the barrel originally in 308. I recommend this minor alteration - it cost me $60, shipping just the barrel, but I think I'm not allowed to say who did it in these pages ... too bad, its good to get a lead on getting things done by folks who have shown they can do it right and affordably.

[cwlongshot]

 I also made the jump and had the rim cut done in a 308 Survivor barrel.  I have yet to shoot it. (Hopefully today?) But I like the ability to shoot both 307/308 interchangably.

CW

[FW Conch]

jacksbark, it's good to hear from someone with 1st hand experience with this.  I don't think anyone can argue that having the job done on a lathe is the way to go, for those who can swing it.  As far as extraction is concerned, nothing could be easier than than popping the caseing out with a pocket screwdriver, if it sticks, with that nice grove around the base.  I had to do this for years with my boyhood 410 after the ejector broke off. 

CW & krochus - after re-reading what I said above, I think I need to explain that what I meant by "improve" was to improve the next load after the caseing is fire formed in the chamber, eather dileberatly or by shooting a factory load.  Of course we get a better fireform by useing one of the proven fireform methods.  I am looking @ this with the mind set that I have one chamber that is so bad that I'm seriously considering useing the barrel for a stub project.  I "have" learned a lot by "struggeling" with it.

After several slow winter months to "ponder" things, I certainly agree with Fred that zero head space is a desireable thing, but I also know that it can only be achieved through handloading, or in the case of factory loads, through "luck".  I just finished loading 20 rounds, achieveing "0" headspace, by seating the bullets @ the lands.  I'm doing this to get some fireformed cases, but also to find the pressure limits for the new Berger  bullets I'm trying for the first time-starting load & working up.  Even useing such quality bullets, this is not automatically accomplished.  Out of 20 bullets seated with the same die setting, two came out too short, & three came out too long.  This can only be because of differences in the ogive in the same run of bullets.  I ran the "long" ones in a bit, & pulled the "short" & set them properly. Now I need RANGE TIME !

CW, I hope this finds you very well   I was "fixen" to shoot you a post to see where you are with your project, but this tells me you are just waiting to "bust out", like the rest of us !   Along with the 7.62x54R project that krochus spoke of, I am anxious to hear your results !

LETS ALL PULL FOR AN EARLY SPRING !  Good Loadin - Good Shootin !         Jim

[trotterlg]

....

[FW Conch]

  Thank's Larry ! As usual, your right there for us ! 

[NFG]

If nothing else...this thread has illustrated just how bad things can get with nitpicking, arguing semantics, inserting extraneous information to "prove a point"...that everyone has a different level of understanding...that some just argue to argue or to make some kind of point or proof...that not all the nuances of reloading, case design, substitution, finessing and all the miriad other things that can be done, are understood by those blowing smoke...and trying to explain without inserting 50 years of experience into the rebuttal or knowing the level of expertise of the other people, is a lesson in futility, and even a picture showing it can be done isn't always the answer.

The rims on rimless cases can be shaved to fit a break action rifle/pistol by nothing more than the expediency of measuring a lot of cases and picking the thinest rim, using that case as the reference case, then shaving off the extra thickness of brass in the rest of the cases to match...and the same goes for the rim OD...

Every set of reloading dies can be adjusted up or down...Redding makes custom shell holders in plus 0.005" increments and you can(someone can) grind off the top of a standard shell holder to adjust the shoulder to get whatever headspace you want...if you are dealing with a custom chamber, then custom dies are required...

The meer fact of just trying out the two cases to see what would be required was somehow lost in the sea of words...OF COURSE you would have to cut a rim recess if you were going from a rimless to a rimmed case...a very simple operation by any gunsmith and not requiring a reamer...the 307/308 cases headspace on the shoulder NOT THE RIM...but not vicea versa...

Most of the above information was passed over or not understood by at least one respondent and/or not known/understood by the majority of the respondents on ANY forum I have read or responded to.

Somewhere (on this forum or Bearthooth, you will have to search)  I mentioned I have a 356 W that I can shoot 358 cases and several other cases  sized and trimmed in the 356/358 W reloading dies...interchangeabley...with hunting accuracy (>1.5" groups)...the same 307/308 case necked up to 35 cal...no sweat/no problem, and the simple explaination was misunderstood.

I also mentioned you have to understand reloading procedures, pressure and the rest so you don't break out in stupidity and hurt yourself or your gun...that little blurb seems to be lost on a few people also...

I headspace ALL my belted magnums on the SHOULDERS... and adjust my sizing die or shell holders to match the chamber...AND I use onle ONE brand of cases and measure the case from belt to base with a simple jig I made...AND the blurb on base shaving is applicable hear also...again this nuance has been lost or missunderstood...doing this little bit of "case benchrest prep" adds accuracy to my belted magnums and extends case life along with not getting "magnumitise" when I reload them.  I've loaded and fire 2 cases in a 375 H&H with 300 gr Hornady RN at ~2600fs 10 times before I tossed them...just to see...I use once fired cases for hunting and reload belted mag cases only 5 time before tossing them during load developement.

I now have or have had several straight walled cartidges that can shoot well below 1 MOA...that depends on HOW I handle and reload the cases...what I do with ALL the different components and whethere I want less than MOA accuracy or just hunting accuracy...MOA of deer is a lot bigger than MOA of sage rat.

Knowing what you can do and how to do it is only understood by a few...mostly gunsmith or machinist types and advanced reloaders and experimenters who have to understand it to make a living or just like to see what they can do.

The major problems always boil down to woody waving, male ego and the need to "be right" no matter what...the need to show off..."be all you can be"...no matter what the sport or activity is.

The easiest and the hardest thing to do is try to step-by-step explain a procedure without knowing the level of expertise and without all the woody waving getting in the way...something so simple as sizing a case can get extremely complicated as the person moves up the different levels of undestanding, accuracy, need and proficiency...but we all like to blow smoke and strut our stuff...

Some of the information I presented has only indirect application to the 307/308 question...but that indirect information has a very high implication for the actual chambering of the two.

Therein lies the fly in the pie...information for informations sake is lost on machomania...


Enjoy your toys.

[jacksbark]

Conch, I see at the end of your post you mentioned the '7.62x54 project' ... well, I wasn't in on that, but I did take one of my 7.62x39 Handi barrels (I bought three such rifles a few years back; one became my 303 British, another became my 7.62x54 and the third is still in 7.62x39 as a spare for years from now when I eventually wear out one of the other two.

Both the 303 and the 7.62x54 have proven to be excellent shooters and I'm glad I did it. The camber reaming was done by hand, by me, and it was very easy ... like most things worth doing, you just take your time and use loads of lube. For both of these I simply removed the ejector/extractor and tied off the barrel to a post, using the rciever lug as my 'stop' to prevent clockwise rotation as i cut, with the chamber facing upwards ... i.e., tied upside down to the post (becasue I don't have a lathe). I then pushed a tight 'plug' of cotton wool down the - barrel about 8" in. I then poured my cutting oil in the hole - used Brownell's 'Do-Drill'. I then gently inserted the reamer until it came to rest on the opening of the chanber and proceeded to turn the 'T' clockwise using only very light pressure (handly any - as the reamer is very sharp at this stage and cutter under the weight of the 'T'-handle and the reamer alone will start removing steel. After about 50 turn there was a noticable 'opening' to the chamber and the cutter was in about 1/2"-3/4" by them. I removed the cutter ... lifting vertically upwards and making sure to NOT reverse (go anti-clockwise), actually still keeping a little clockwise rotation going as I lifted. I took a toothbrush and lightly brushed away the cuttings and carefully went back in. As the reamer went deeper I found I had to increase both the force applied downward (inward) a little (not by much ... stay 'light') and in rotation (again, not much; stay light), and repeated the removal/cleaning about every 50 turns. After about 10-15 minutes .... Voila, as they say ... done! I poured out the cutting oil by pushing the cotton plug out the muzzle into a waiting cup covered with a cotton rag which caught the oil and filtered out all but the smallest metal fragments and poured that clean oil back into the 'Do-Drill' can for future use ... I guess I maybe 'lost' an ounce of oil in all this. I then cleaned-out the 'new' chamber with a chamber brush, wool mop and many passes with a piece of cotton until it was spotless under a hand-held mafnifier and light. The I dropped in many different new and full-length resized 303 case and checked that the rear of the cases were totally 'flush' with the rear face of the breech ... and they were ... got lucky the very first time ... woo hooo!  .

Then, within an hour, I was at the range and making 1"-1 1/2" groups with the 303 

I am sure that those gunsmiths out there might be less impressed with the foregoing procedure, but it did produce very happy results. The 303 brass I get out of this chamber is perfectly fire-formed to the chamber, so I only have to neck side now, and there is none of that 'bulge' one so often sees in once-fired 303 brass from being fired in a 'war-standard' sloppy chamber as you so often find in milsurp-303s.

It is too bad that NEW didn't have the foresight to include the 303 in their line-up. Their arguement (as they stated in a letter back to me back in the 90s) about not wishing to make their rifles available for shooting milsurp (non-SAAMI Standard) ammo would mean (as I somewhat cheekily responded to that letter  ) that they would be withdrawing production of the .223 Rem (5.56), the 308 Win (7.62), the 30-06 and the 45-70. I never heard back from them after that 

[jacksbark]

Reference the above - 7.62x54's experiences was exacly the same. The milsup ammo didn't turn out so good theough as I soon found that only a few 'brands' of milsurp 'liked' the Handi. Basically, anything brass-cased seems to fine. Anything steel cased is problematic in that I see the primers are set too far in for the Handi's firing pin to give them a sufficiently consistent 'smack' and dent ... so there's not of misfires and double hits to get a 'bang'. But, as far as accuracy is concerned, whether milsurp, commercial or handload ... the 7.62x54 has been another winner. Just remeber the need to clean the barrel immediately after firing (I pour a coffee jug of hot water down the barrel using a funnel, that gets the barrel too hot to touch and it dried instantly, then I run an oily patch in there and that holds full cleaning off for a day or two. Barrel is still brilliantly shiny after six years use and about 5,000 rds. down-range. I don't shoot AP, tracers, incendiaries or the like ... but the barrel does like those Czech 'practice' rounds ... the ones with the small round nose bullet.

[FW Conch]

  jacksbark, good post - great info   Thanks   Jim

[NFG]

I would guess that the problem with commercially offering a 303 Brit has been the bad rap over the years, and it also being an "old timey" cartridge...Sad... because the ballistics of a custom reloaded 303 Brit, to modern pressures in a modern rifle,  equals the 308 W as far as hunting goes.  Actually the 303 Brit has a slight edge as far as the case capacity and bullet diameter is concerned and you can "improve" the Brit to near 30-06 case volume.

There are several 0.311-0.313" size cartridges rimmed and rimless that can equal to the 308(no nitpicking please) but they are all old military...Jacksbark mentioned some of the best...I have milsurp rifles in those calibers and they work just fine.  I have an excellent 7.65x53 1891 Argentine Mauser I picked up last year but can't find anything but pricey Norma ammo for it, and at the time no reloading dies...Finally just ordered a set of Lyman dies so I can get to playing.

I don't load beyond SAAMI specs for milsurp rifles, many do, but I have loaded a 303 Brit chambered Ruger MKII to slightly beyond 308 W velocities at equal pressures due to that difference in case volume.  Took an additional 1 grain of the same powder to equal and a few more grains for the extra f/s.

I've never found ANY milsurp ammo to be anything but what it was supposed to be...some brands will shoot better than others and some calibers are more accurate, but the only way to get accuracy is "roll your own" and do all the "bench prepping" with the system as a whole.

Anyway...lots of way to do things in the "Wildcat realm"...

Luck on your project.

[Troyboy]

Really like the "this is how i did it" and a description posts. Makes it easy for a guy to get his handi on without the confusion.