How much Bullseye is safe with 166gr cast in a 357mag

[Sixgun]

I have been shooting Cowboy Rifle Silhouette now for 2 years.  I do great with the small bore but have been lagging with the center fire pistol cartridge matches.  I decided to do more practice with it so for the last few weeks I have been doing my Thursday practice sessions with my Rossi 92 357 mag.

Last week I was looking over some old load notes and saw a load I tested a few years ago in this gun.  It consisted of a Lee 166gr cast from soft lead alloy which comes out of the mold at 170gr.  Winchester Brass, 5 gr of Bullseye and a CCI standard small pistol primer.  The note on it said that the standard deviation was 1.  

I loaded up 10 rounds and went out back of the barn and shot them over my chrony.  The High Volicity was 1216 and the Low was 1214 for 10 rounds.  The Extreme spread listed at 1.83 and Std Div was 1.

I loaded up enough for a 40 rnd match and took them out and tried them last night.  They worked great and I shot a AAA score of 31.  This is my all time high for this type of match with this gun.

I am trying to decide why I never did anything with this load.  I looked in all of my reloading data and couldn't find anything with this much bullseye with that heavy of a bullet.  

I didn't see any pressure signs on the cases.  Primers were rounded and not cratered.  Extraction was easy and they seem to shoot great.

I didn't have to adjust my sights for the whole match either.  I shot at the stand for the 40 meter chickens, belley line on the 50 meter pigs, dead on at the 75 meter turkeys and dead on at the 100 meter rams.  The chickens were all burried in the berm.  I had some 1/2 bullet hits on the rams that still went down.

Anyway, what do you think?  Is this much Bullseye too much or should I quit worring about it.

Sixgun

[John Traveler]

How-do, Sixgun!

I've loaded that same Lee 166 grain .357 SWC for my S&W revolvers and Marlin 1894 carbines, but only using Unique, WW296, Herco.  All much slower than Bullseye powder.

I've used LOTS of Bullseye and WW231 in .38 Spl 148g match wadcutter and standard 158g loads in PPC competition.  

I do NOT load Bullseye in .357 cases.  It may work just fine for a long time, but you risk the KA-BOOM! phenomenon.  Some people dispute that this can happen, but believe me, it HAS and it DOES happen!

An old standby for .38 Spl match loads is 2..5 or 2.7 grains Bullseye corked with a 148g HBWC bullet in .38 SPL cases.  That SAME load in .357 magnum cases has been connected with several documented several KA-BOOM incidents since the 1970's.  Col Jeff Cooper described a new .357 Python blown up using 2.5g Bullseye in .357 magnum cases.  He wrote that he will not fire such loads in his .357 revolvers, and neither will I.

Note that 5.0 grains is precisely a double charge in the .38 Spl. case  THAT load HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED AS BLOWING UP REVOLVERS!!!!.

In your .357/5.0 Bullseye/166 SWC load, I believe that you are skating mighty close to the same phenomenon.

In revolver calibers, you CAN NOT rely on primer flattening and case extraction signs as you approach or exceed maximum pressures for that caliber.  They are NOT reliable indicators, believe me!  I and several gunsmithing friends have seen too many revolvers with bulged chambers as a direct result of "HOT LOADING" ammunition.

It's YOUR gun, so you can certainly do what you want to do.  My recommendation is NOT to use that load!

John

[Graybeard]

Here is one I'm gonna go just the opposite of John even tho that's not a common thing for us to see things this differently.

The most commonly "reported" blow ups of guns come not with fast burning powders like Bullseye but with way under book recommended charges of slower burning powders. Can you over charge with a fast burner like Bullseye and blow one? You better betcha. No doubt about it.

Please note: THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A LOAD RECOMMENDATION. I am merely telling you what I personally do and have done for a great many years.

I have been loading 5.8 grains of Bullseye in .38 Special cases over bullets from 125 to 170 grains and firing them ONLY in .357 Mag or STRONG large frame .38 specials. Have fired thousands of them. I use 6.5 grains in the .357 Mag cases under same bullets as above.

NO that is NOT a load recommendation. See my note. Just telling ya what I've been doing for 30 years with zero bad results so far. Do I consider what I'm doing absolute max in my guns? You better betcha. No way I'd go higher but to my personal satisfaction I'd decided that the above is OK in S&W K and L frame revolvers, Colt Pythons and Troopers and all Ruger guns I've owned in that time.

As to five grains being a double charge that's not quite true. In the current Hornady manual they list 3.0 grains of Bullseye with their swaged HB wad cutters. The low charge is more because of the type bullet it is and best velocity range for WC accuracy than pressure related alone. For their 158 grain swaged SWC bullets they list 3.7 grains for 800 fps.

So where and why did I end up with my 5.8 grains? Dunno. Been too long ago to recall. Originally it was taken from a book however but that was over 30 years ago and I can't recall which book. Just know I've been using it every since as it proved the most accurate in my particular handgun back then and has proven super accurate in everyone since.

NO WAY would I or have I ever fired this in a small frame like the S&W J or Colt Detective revolvers. I haven't a clue what pressure it is running. I have absolutely NO DOUBT it is something well above SAAMI for the .38 Special. Even more than a +P most likely.

But your 5.0 in a .357 Mag case and gun? Me I'd personally not worry about it. I am NOT however telling you what to do. That is for you to decide on your own. The risk belongs to you and you alone just as the risk is mine and mine alone on the loads I mentioned above shot in my guns by me.

To date I am unaware of one single repeatable and proveable instance of the detonation theory. Many many times labs and people with pressure measuring equipment have tried to duplicate it. So far to the best of my understanding no one has been able to do it. Oh yeah lots of guns have blown up for one reason or another. Heck I did it with a TC .44 magnum once and with a book max load but in a case with less than normal capacity for some reason. NOT FUN! But I think over loading not the detonation theory is the reason why they all blew.

Now it sure is easy to double charge with Bullseye as it is such a low volume powder in most applications. Double a five grain charge to 10 grains and you most likely have a bomb on your hands. On that John and I can sure enough agree I think.

GB

GB

[Sixgun]

I want to thank both John and GB for the comeback on this load.  I am not sure where I got it to begin with but it was probably from one book or another.  With this long bullet a double charge would be very compressed but I don't know if it would be detected while seating the bullet.  I can garentee that I would not like that kind of a surprize in the middle of a silhouette match.

I have not shot this load on paper but it sure seems to do well on the silhouettes.  In failing light I shot 8 chickens, 10 pigs, 9 turkeys, and 4 rams.  During the rams the sun came out of the clouds and I couldn't make them out from the backdrop.  ( it is always good to have an excuse)

I think I will continue to use this load and see what I can do.

Again, thanks for the advice.

[John Traveler]

How-do, GB!

We can mutually AGREE on one thing for sure:

The handloader is himself personally responsible for what he chooses to put into his loads.  Period!

Yes, I know that we can get away with a lot (most of the time, anyway), and no one is hurt or blowup.  I've had my share of rubbing a rabbit's foot, keeping my fingers crossed, etc before touching off a hot load.  I don't do those things anymore, after having a few close calls and seeing the results of friends that DID continue to load hot.

I have no problem with knowledgeable, experienced folks like yourself making warm and hot loads and getting great results.  I just choose not to do it anymore.

I'm fond of P.O. Ackley's statement that (paraphrasing) "A handloader can make chamber pressures whatever he wants them to be."

As a kid growing up in a military community, my favorite non-work-non-play activity was stopping by the big gunshop in town and browsing, looking, and just listening to the old-tymers talk guns.  The smell of leather, gun oil, and the whir of machinery in the gunsmith's shop downstairs.  

The one thing that DID make a lasting impression on me were the many displays of blownup guns, ruptured barrels, shattered actions and barrels, and the little postcard-sized legends that described what happened to MAKE the gun like that.  Boy oh boy, that sure made me think GUN SAFETY all the time!

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with disagreement, discussion, and exchanging ideas and opinions.  It's GREAT that we can do this.  Please remember, there are plenty of other places in the world where people CAN NOT speak/write freely without getting into serious trouble.
 
John

[Greybeard]

John: I believe this one load is about the only one of my HOT!!! loads that I still load. I certainly do acknowledge it is a REAL WARM one for the .38 Special without a doubt. Like I said I hardly ever use it except in .357 Mag revolvers or big heavy and strong .38 Specials. I also never suggest it to anyone. I did used to load one other that was an Elmer Keith load using either the 358156or maybe it was the 358429??? bullet in a .38 Special case. You seated it way out and shot it only in strong .357 Mag revolvers. Never in a .38 Special. I stopped using it tho but it sure was accurate.

Sixgun: One practice I long ago added to my reloading routine is I use a loading block with 50 holes. I put 50 primed cases into it and then loaded them in turn using a powder measure. I count them as I flip the handle to drop a charge. Unless every time I get to the end of a row the count is the proper multiple of 10 I know something is amiss. Even then when I get to the end and the count is right I have one more double check. I tilt the tray/block every so slightly so I can peek down into each case in turn and ONLY if every single one looks like all the others do I proceed to load them with bullets. If anything doesn't look the same that case and those next to it come out to have the powder dumped and dropped again. If after that the filled case still doesn't look right the powder goes back in the hopper and the case into the trash can.

ONCE just once I left out that last step. The result was a blown up TC Contender .44 Mag barrel. Charge weight was absolutely what it should be and what was in all the other cases. This was verified by scale when the third time it just still didn't look right. There was no obstruction in the case. Nothing. It just has a smaller capacity than the others. The headstamp read S&W. Since that day every S&W case I've come across has been crushed and trashed. I'd not use one on a bet.

GB

[Fuzzy Sights]

I have shot up to 6.5 grains Bullseye with 160 grain cast and up to 5.5 grains with 180 grain cast in my 16 inch Rossi. They were all quite accurate out to 125 yds...Gary D.