Author Topic: Are boat tail bullets less accurate? (Read 2130 times)

ThunderStick · « **on:** March 26, 2009, 09:43:03 AM »

Maby that is a little tricky. Are boat tail bullets harder to make shoot accuratly? I having a pill working up a load for my new .260 that will shoot sub moa with the Nosler 120 BTs. I was just about ready to give up, but I finally have a load that works.
I know I had a .243 that loved the flat base bullets, but it detested boat tails for some reason. I was beginning to think this .260 was gonna be the same way.

Also if anyone has any hints about reducing copper fouling, please pass them on! This barrell copper fouls very quickly! I thought stainless was susposed to break in quickly! $:-\$

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:53:21 AM »

Quote from: ThunderStick on March 26, 2009, 09:43:03 AM

Also if anyone has any hints about reducing copper fouling, please pass them on! This barrell copper fouls very quickly! I thought stainless was susposed to break in quickly! $:-\$

Use lead bullets. Reduces copper fouling to zero every time it is tried...

Luckyducker · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2009, 12:41:10 PM »

Boattail bullets are no harder to find a load for than flat base bullets, but your rifle may not like them. I have rifles that prefer boattails and have had others that just wouldn't shoot them, and others yet that would shoot them in a different bullet/weight. That is what drives reloaders looney tunes, well that and other things that involve ballistics.

The main thing that causes a rifle bore to copper foul faster than some is the condition of the surfaces within the barrel. Some barrel steels are very hard, such a Ruger, and will take a long time to break in to the point that it doesn't collect copper easily. The more expensive rifles/barrels are usually hand lapped and don't copper foul so readily. Barrels can be hand lapped at home, but it is a tedious chore and takes a lot of passes to smooth the bore surface enough to see any difference. Just my take on this subject.

KAYR1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2009, 02:58:26 PM »

AS far as copper fouling goes, David Tubb is a world champion shooter that sells both bullets and loaded ammo that are embedded with fine grit. You simply shoot progressively finer grit of abrasive bullets and it essentially "fire laps" the barrel. I have not used them, so I cannot say how they work.

nomosendero · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Luckyducker on March 26, 2009, 12:41:10 PM

Boattail bullets are no harder to find a load for than flat base bullets, but your rifle may not like them. I have rifles that prefer boattails and have had others that just wouldn't shoot them, and others yet that would shoot them in a different bullet/weight. That is what drives reloaders looney tunes, well that and other things that involve ballistics.

The main thing that causes a rifle bore to copper foul faster than some is the condition of the surfaces within the barrel. Some barrel steels are very hard, such a Ruger, and will take a long time to break in to the point that it doesn't collect copper easily. The more expensive rifles/barrels are usually hand lapped and don't copper foul so readily. Barrels can be hand lapped at home, but it is a tedious chore and takes a lot of passes to smooth the bore surface enough to see any difference. Just my take on this subject.

Ditto for all of that except maybe the Ruger & it's steel "hardness". I have heard the same thing, but have no way to test it compared to others. A gunsmith I know complains when he has to drill or do machine work on a Ruger.
Anyway, back to the subject.

Yes, your gun may not like boattails (I have had some of those) or it may not like that particular one even though it sounds you are getting there. Also, some are "seating depth sensitive". But the only way you can know for sure if
you gun does not like boattails is to try other boattails & diff. wts. of those & compare with 2 or 3 flat base bullets before this general comment can be verified. You can't say that by trying 1 bullet.

john keyes · « **Reply #5 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:16:08 PM »

I have a 700MTN LSS and it loves the cheap 140 gr corelokts and H414

Siskiyou · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:51:03 PM »

Interesting, years ago I invested in a few boxes of Nosler Solid Base boattails. My Remington M760 liked Sierra and Norma Boattails but did not care for the Nosler boattails. I have not tried them in my other .270 rifle. On a scale of 1 to 10 they were a 6. I stopped load development because Nosler dropped the bullet for the ballistic tip.

Trying a different powder may have changed the results.

The upside of buying those bullets is that I still have a few boxes stuffed deep in my bullet footlocker. In this period of short supplies at less then $5 a box they look like my best investment. I think I purchased them around 1968-69.

Arier Blut · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

Bergers are very good bullets. They are easy to get worked into an accurate load. For the fouling try militec-1. It works well for me.

rickt300 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2009, 07:05:55 AM »

If your barrel copper fouls easily then I would look into solving that problem before I blamed the boat tailed bullets. I have had several rifles that did not shoot well with boat tail bullets, polishing the crown has always cured this problem for me.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2009, 03:00:13 PM »

:)Sir, You have received some excellent advice here, enough to keep you busy for a time testing. I have a .22-250 AI that had a spot in the barrel that fouled badly. Worst with some bullets than others. I got rid of the problem by using JB bore paste. It took a while, but it smoothed up the bore. I just used it on my new 700 .223. Its barrel was not a smooth as my custom barreled jobs, so I thought I would give it a try. :)As some have said, you rifle might prefer flat base over BT's or just the reverse $:-\$ One thing that has helped me with some calibers my old '06, and my .25-06. To get BT's to shoot in both calibers, I switched to magnum primers. With loads I tried with std. primers that were unsatisfactory, them mag. made them excellent. :oIt doesn't always work that way, but it can be worth a try. Good luck.

ThunderStick · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2009, 03:43:11 PM »

Thanks for all the replies! I haven't tried magnum primers, and I may not now that I have found a load that does shoot well. The magnum primers make sence, because the load that shoots well is the hotter of the loads I worked up.
As far as copper fouling, I may try polishing the barrel. I did a polish job on my son's NEF .243 and it will shoot 1/2 inch groups all day long with very little fouling. Wyo-Did you use a patch and jag for the polishing? I would hate to cause more problems by wearing the barrel unevenly and the crown looks fine.

Explorer1 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2009, 07:07:24 PM »

The variables of what works well in a firearm are extensive, the fact a bullet is a boat tail has less impact IMHO than the OAL of the bullet - especially the friction length. Tis not an inherint problem with this bullet shape.

"I thought stainless was susposed to break in quickly!" No, as stated above - its about roughness. SS can be harder to get a smooth finish on, tis all alloy dependent. Might want to consider some valve lapping compound if the bore is really rough.

frankkj · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:03:51 AM »

Quote

Might want to consider some valve lapping compound if the bore is really rough.

Nooooo. Don't do it.

Frank

nomosendero · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2009, 05:31:19 AM »

Quote from: frankkj on March 28, 2009, 04:03:51 AM

Quote
Might want to consider some valve lapping compound if the bore is really rough.

Nooooo. Don't do it.

Frank

+1 & a bunch more

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #14 on:** March 28, 2009, 08:50:34 AM »

Thunderstick, ;)The directions on the JB is to wrap a clean patch around a worn bronze brush then apply the JB to the patch. I usually cut one so it makes just one wrap around the brush. When you wok the paste into the patch it applies pretty evenly. they warn you to use JB sparingly. It has worked well for me on several rifles, and some times I use it to knock out stubborn copper fouling. Hope this helps

nomosendero · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:28:32 PM »

Quote from: Wyo. Coyote Hunter on March 28, 2009, 08:50:34 AM

Thunderstick, ;)The directions on the JB is to wrap a clean patch around a worn bronze brush then apply the JB to the patch. I usually cut one so it makes just one wrap around the brush. When you wok the paste into the patch it applies pretty evenly. they warn you to use JB sparingly. It has worked well for me on several rifles, and some times I use it to knock out stubborn copper fouling. Hope this helps

I agree & have done it a time or 2. I have also used Tubbs Final Finish with great results, & depite naysayers, no downside because of it.

Also, I would sure try the longer 130 Accubond.

jro45 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2009, 04:58:46 AM »

Boat tail bullets are good for long range shooting and not the long ones.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2009, 07:20:10 AM »

The technical answer to your question is NO - but they are more difficult for the manufacturer to make accurate.

Arier Blut · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2009, 07:59:57 PM »

My barrel break in is three steps of abrasives. When I first started competing in benchrest there were a bunch of guys that were very kind and helped a lot.
The first step is coat 10 bullets with jewelers rouge. Fire them and 10 non coated rounds.
Second step coat 10 bullets with turtle wax brand polishing compound. Then fire 10 non coated.
Final step coat 10 rounds with brasso. At this point you do not clean until accuracy falls. There was no cleaning up to this point either.

I asked them about the pre-manufactured bore polish bullets. They stated they were too abrasive. I don't know myself, never tried them. The first time I clean I use m-pro seven to get a clean bore. Then militic-1 for the metal conditioner inside the bore. I probably go 1500-1800 rounds in between cleaning in 6mm ppc. This barrel is stainless. That's the closest caliber I have to the one you are having trouble with. Larger diameter bores can generally go longer before they drop. My 308 will go 3000-3500 rounds. The little 17 rem only gets about 400-500 rounds before it is off.
Good Luck

454Puma · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2009, 08:03:05 PM »

Funny every rifle I own likes boat tails better then flat base bullets!.

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** April 19, 2009, 02:22:44 AM »

Do not use valve lapping compound, it is far too abrasive. Your rifle barrel needs bore lapping, it is not the style bullet you are using and in the 6.5mm bore the boat tail bullets will give you great long range accuracy. The flat base bullets are also excellent for accuracy. The 260/6.5mm caliber is an excellent hunting round.

Please go to Veral Smith's Forum, down the line here at Graybeards. Both Veral Smith and another fella named Marshall Stanton of BearTooth Bullets have designed excellent procedures for properly fire lapping a bore. I have used their materials and process with great success on a number of rifles and pistols. The materials that Veral Smith recommends and marshall Stanton sells will properly lapp the barrel. I do not recommend anything else. Mikey.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2009, 02:34:36 AM »

Quote from: 454Puma on April 18, 2009, 08:03:05 PM

Funny every rifle I own likes boat tails better then flat base bullets!.

Yea, mine too.....

ThunderStick · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »

Boy! Some of these responses are things to think about. You know it's funny, I haden't thought of my CZ527 .223. It shoots boat tails very well, ever bit as accurate as the flat base bullets. I guess I was just thinking of my current new rifle and the experences with the last deer rifle.

I made myself a cleaning cradle the other day and had to test it out, so I cleaned my son's .243 handi rifle and the 527. Neither had enough copper fouling to sneeze at and I admit that the CZ has had hundreds of rounds through it since the last cleaning!

billy_56081 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2009, 04:33:27 PM »

Inaccuracy with boat tail bullets is often related to the crown of the barrel. As the boat tailed bullet exits the muzzle an uneven crown pushes side ways on the longer bearing surface of a boat tail bullet.

ThunderStick · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2009, 06:52:00 AM »

More testing, cleaning, loading, and shooting!

After more testing of the 120gr accuatip loading that is shooting well, I have decided it is too hot and must be backed down. I started from my origonal load and worked backwards at 0.5gr at a time. I have discovered that the rifle is still very prone to copper fouling. All day yesterday it went like this. One fouling shot, three shot group, check group, fire next shot and check placement, fire fifth shot and start cleaning. The cleaning process was, clean out the powder residue, Butches Bore shine and nylon brush, patch, and repeat untill no blue. Take the rifle into the sun light, look into the bore and DAMN there is still copper in there! Resorted to bronze brush and Kroil and knocked out the last of the copper then did the Bore Shine again and it always removed a little more. Repeat!

On the 5th loading I hit pay dirt, at 38.5gr and 38gr loadings they where at 0.6 at 100 yards. Random loading with 100gr accutips are giving less than an inch also, got lucky on that one. All in all I fired around 60 rounds and cleaned at least 10 times!

I stopped by the gun shop on the way home and bought some J-B bore paste to try and smooth things up a bit. I worked the lower end of the barrel then passed the patch up the barrel. Followed by wet and dry patches of Kroil then a wet nylon brush and more wet dry patches. I was still getting stuff out of that barrel after this, including slightly blue patches when the Bore Shine was allowed to set for 30 mins or so. I went back to the J-B and pushed from breach to muzzel, brought the patch back to the breach, rotated it and made another pass x5 for 2 patches or 10 passes, brushed and patched. It took 3 of these cycles before the patches with Kroil finaly started to come out clean, and dry patches also!
I plan on using this J-B method untill this barrel stops fouling so badly. The good news is that the problem of bullets doesen't exist as long as the barrel is clean. This gun also doesn't throw first round flyers like some do.

Thanks for all the help.