Author Topic: Long barreled lever action: .357 Mag. or 45-70? (Read 3149 times)

Bowhunter57 · « **on:** April 25, 2009, 03:53:58 AM »

I'm considering the purchase of a long barreled lever action rifle in either .357 Mag. or 45-70.

This rifle will be used for varmint hunting. Varmints = groundhogs, coyotes, fox, coons, feral cats, etc. Pelt/meat are not a concern, as these varmints are being eliminated for population/pest control. Shot distances will be well inside 150 yards.

My thoughts on the two calibers are:
The .357 Mag. will certainly do the job, but the 45-70 would be just as much fun, with more power. I'm NOT recoild sensitive or concerned with ammo cost. I'll spend as much time at the range as is needed to find out the rifle's capabilities (reloads, ranges, accuracy, etc.) and after that my time will be spent hunting.

I already have the dies, etc. for the .357 Mag., therefore my choice of the 45-70 over the .44 Mag. cartridge. If I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go big.

Your opinions and experiences are appreciated.
Thank you, Bowhunter57

helotaxi · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2009, 05:27:06 AM »

No reason to go with the .357 in a long barrel. The Carbine length barrels will get pretty much all out of the round (and leave you with a quicker handling rifle). If you're set on a long barreled lever-gun and those are your two cartridge choices, the 45-70 is the logical choice.

sixgun_symphony · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2009, 11:46:33 AM »

If you handload, then consider the .32 WCF chambering. Also called the .32-20 when chambered in S&W or Colt revolvers as those companies did not want the name of another gun manufacturer stamped on their products.

It is a good chambering for small game and pest control and it's an authentic old timey cartridge. It was originally a blackpowder cartridge, so it can be alot of fun by loading it with the BP or Pyrodex for the smoke.

I think Marlin still makes a lever rifle in .32-20, so check it out.

mannyrock · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2009, 06:18:40 AM »

Bowhunter

It appears that you are not asking for our opinions. You are asking for us to validate your decision. You have already made up your mind to go with the .45-70.

A long barreled .357 mag is an absolute joy to shoot, very accurate, much cheaper and easier to reload than a .45-70, much quieter, much easier to shoot accurately in any rifle (less blast, recoil, etc.), vastly cheaper for factory ammo, and will easily do the job on varmints (including coyotes) out to 150 yards. The .357 mag is plainly the better choice here. The concept that a 400 grain chunk of lead, almost a half an inch in diameter, is a better "varmint" round, is in my opinion incorrect.

But, shoot what makes you happy. :-)

Regards,

Mannyrock

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 26, 2009, 12:31:04 PM »

I have a total of 5-357 rifles, they are a great choice for what you stated in your posts. You can always get a 45-70 later, the 357's can be scarce at times. I've taken game upto and including Mule deer with the 357 mag out of the rifle. I have barrel lenghts of 18 1/2, 22 and 24 inch, can't tell much difference in the way they work. Haven't set up a chronograph to do side-by-side with the ammo. Will try to do that this summer. DP

mannyrock · « **Reply #5 on:** April 26, 2009, 01:23:42 PM »

Yes dpe, the .357 mag lever is a remarkably flexible, and under-rated, general purpose rifle.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #6 on:** April 26, 2009, 01:30:00 PM »

If you don't care about recoil or cost of ammo or the hide damage then what exactly are you asking? The 45/70 has a longer effective range that seems to be the only thing I can add at this point.

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock

Bowhunter

It appears that you are not asking for our opinions. You are asking for us to validate your decision. You have already made up your mind to go with the .45-70.

The .357 mag is plainly the better choice here.

mannyrock,
True, I have some preconceived notions of what I'd like to own, but I'd much rather take in a mirad of opinions to see if I'm way off on my thoughts or close or right on.

As it turns out, I have this topic posted on 5 forums and the results reflect your thoughts.

* .357 Mag. has 20 votes.
* .44 Mag. has 1 vote.
* 45 Long Colt has 2 votes.
* 30/30 has 16 votes.
* 45-70 has 14 votes.

The muzzle blast/noise from a 45-70 would ruin the hunting in an area for 20 minutes or more. I've shot at groundhogs with a .22-250 at 110 to 170 yards that would turn inside out at the sound...if I missed. At that point, you might as well pack up, leave and come back in an hour. I already own the dies, brass, etc. to reload for a .357 Mag., due to the ownership of a Desert Eagle .357 Mag. that I'm attmpting to sell or trade for a long barreled lever action rifle.

I was suprised to see so many suggestions for the 30/30 cartridge.

A local gun shop is willing to work with me on a trade, so that might be an option. To get into a 24" barrel, I may have to purchase a Puma. The longest barrel length in a Marlin is 20". However, the extra 4" may not make that much of a difference...ballistically.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

mannyrock · « **Reply #8 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:37:33 PM »

Bowhunter,

Glad to see you are keeping an open mind. Marlin makes a wonderful lever action .357 mag with a heavy octagonal 24 inch barrel, called the Cowboy Model. It is expensive, but it would be much better for varmints than the 20 inch barrel, if you can afford it, because the rifle points much better and the weight is up front.

I don't reload, but I would imagine that if you could get some 125 grain round-nose soft points, you could load them up fairly hot in the .357, and get a much flatter shooting round than the 45-70.

If you were asking about a deer rifle, no question that the 45-40 would be the way to go. But for varmints and fun, the .357 is the answer.

Best to you,

Mannyrock

mannyrock · « **Reply #9 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:39:06 PM »

Sorry bout my last typo. I meant .45-70, not 45-40.

Mannyrock

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2009, 01:17:12 AM »

I am amazed at the amount of hunting success stories that I've read concerning the .357 Mag. lever action rifle. Everything from groundhogs to coyotes and on up to deer and hogs.

I wished Marlin made them in a 24" barrel. It appears that 20" barrels are as long as they get, in a Marlin and I don't want to get away from the Marlin brand/reputation to chance a Puma, just for 4" more barrel length. It may not be an issue...I just like the longer barrels.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

Jacko · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2009, 09:27:58 PM »

I replied on this post in another forum , good to get as much info as you can . I have a Rossi in .357 with the 24" octagonal barrel and it is a great rifle for me . I wondered long and hard about brand , calibre etc and in the end it did come down to cost of shooting and value for money . I would dearly love a 45.70 lever and will get one in the future , a mate has a Marlin in 45.70 and it's a top rifle but expensive to run , he has settled on casting his own bullets and running mild Trailboss loads with 300 grain bullets - I know you said cost is not an issue . In the mean while I am wrapt in the quality of my Rossi , you wont go far wrong if you end up with one .

regards Jacko

stubshaft · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2009, 10:16:31 PM »

I have had and shot a 357 marlin for years. It is light and hansy to shoot. I ALSO have 2 45/70 marlins one standard rifle and one guide gun. The guide gun jumps in my hand now when I go hunting or just walking in the woods.

GET THE 45/70 OR YOU'LL REGRET IT

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:04:43 AM »

Bowhunter: get the 357 first. Find a barrel length that suits you best and shoot the thing. Take it with you whenever you go out into the woods. If you ever find yourself going out to hunt some sort of critter that a full magazine tube of heavy weight 357s won't handle then get the 45-70. jmtcw.

LCR · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2009, 12:21:28 PM »

45-70 for varmints and predators is a total waste of time,powder and lead. I've used an 1894C for those same critters for years and you wouldn't believe me if I told you how many lives it's taken. The .357 from a carbine is a horse of a different color and hits on coyote size game down to p-dogs with 110-125 grain hollow points can only be described as greusome... brains, snot, piss, blood, bone shards, hair clumps, organ chunks raining down from the sky. The only thing I can compare it to is my 30-06 loaded with 110 grain Speer 30 cal. hollow points(intended for M1 carbine). If you want blood, get a 357 carbine.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2009, 04:35:38 PM »

Bowhunter57

You can "make do" with all of the cartridges mentioned. However let me add that i started out with a 30-30 in '61. I've used numerous leverguns in various cartridges, including a couple of the newer cartridges, but mostly in the cartridges you list. I've always come back to the 30-30 and a year or so ago aquired a M94AE Black Shadow with 24" barrel in 30-30. It is quite accurate with numerous loads, factory and handloads, and is my levergun to keep. I have killed very small varmints to elk with that cartridge and do not find it wanting if one stays within it's limitations. Reloading for it gives me the ability to load 90 gr lead SWCs at 800 fps for small game and plinking up through the reliable 311041 at factory velocity of 2200 fps for excellent big game performance. jacteted bullets from the 88 gr Mauser .308 Hornady up through the 190 gr WW SilverTip .303 Savage bullet (if you can find them) are excellent for everything from rogue field mice to elk/bear. Of course the standard WW/Rem/Speer/Hornady?Sierra FP 150-170 gr bullets are also excellent for deer/antelope/bear and hogs. Reloading can be as simple as a Lee loader (how I started reloading) to as extensive as you want to get. As far as factory ammo goes the Hornady LeveRevolution ammuntion velocity (2452 fps w/160 gr bullet) actually exceeds the published velocity and accuracy (1.5" for 7 shots) is outstanding. The Federal 150 and 170 gr Power Shoks are also good loads.

For the needs you mention the 30-30 is the ideal cartridge for use in a Lever gun. The 24" barrel winchester AEs are that hard to find and of course marlin makes their 336 that way. Both provide for low over the bore mounting of regular scopes. I'm using a K4 Weaver with the old range finding reticle on my M94. The Leupold bases allow the sope to come off easily and the Lyman slide for the rear aperture to slip on. Definately my levergun to keep.

Larry Gibson

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2009, 02:19:54 PM »

Where do you find 90 gn cast semi-wadcutters in 30 caliber???

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2009, 10:34:39 AM »

Quote from: LCR

45-70 for varmints and predators is a total waste of time, powder and lead.

Yep...but it would be fun.

Just the same, the .357 Mag. is the one that I'll be purchasing. I beleive you, as well as others that have replied and testified to the potiential of this pistol cartridge in a rifle.

I read a reply, on another forum, from a guy that said his .357 Mag. Marlin will hit a playing card at 100 yards and is a "one-holer" at 50 yards. I'm certain that this type of accuracy can be obtained from this rifle/cartridge, with the right reloads and that's what I'm after.

I'll have to post some pics of the rifle and targets, as soon as I make the purchase. Hopefully, some nice groupings and a varmint or two.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2009, 10:56:13 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on May 03, 2009, 02:19:54 PM

Where do you find 90 gn cast semi-wadcutters in 30 caliber???

Most any SWC for the .32 pistol cartridges work fine. The ".32" is a misnomer as most all are .312-.314" diameter. There are some .308 -.309" cast bullets but the are usually lighter weight intended for the .30 Mauser and .30 Luger. They are usually RN though. The weights of the available SWCs run from 75 gr up through 118 gr. Most are PB but there are some are GC'd. RCBS, Lyman, Saeco, Lee and others make numerous moulds for them. There also was a GB over on the Cast Boolit Forum. Cast SWC bullets of 85 -115 gr are also available from many commercial casters. Hornady's 90 gr swaged lead SWC works as well over 3 gr of Bullseye. I genrally size them .311 for .308 barrels and if the cast out larger at .314 for .311/.312 barrels. Comercial cast of .312-.314 can simply be sized through a .311 Lee sizer. No need to relube as the lube stays in the grooves. Actually 90 gr SWCs in .30 cal are quite common and easy to cast or buy.

Larry Gibson

Belt driven · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2009, 06:10:45 PM »

I own a marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70. Shooting that makes a 30-06 feel like a heavy barrel 22-250. You may be recoil proof, but two boxes later you might be a little more wrung out. Do a search for Garrett cartridges on the internet and read the customer testimonials about what thier 45-70's do. Like thru both shoulders of a Bison, the big 5 game in Africa, things like that. Loaded to modern pressures, it is a freight train out to 200 yards. Even with 405 slugs, a fully loaded 1895 cowboy is hauling around 4,000 grains of lead. Over half a pound. You can certainly dump a varmint with it, but the muzzle report and condition of your back stop may not be so good as after a round or two.

The obvious answer to your question is to buy both, 'cause you never know when your going to be up against the Killer Rabbit.

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2009, 04:54:06 PM »

Well, it's been a long wait, but it's here. I happened to stop by my local gun shop and there sat my back-ordered Henry Big Boy, in .357 Mag. I was about to change the order to a Marlin Cowboy 45/70, so it must have been meant to be, as there it sat.

I'm looking forward to taking my first coyote with this Henry.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57