Author Topic: Ball weight : calibre  (Read 1360 times)

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Offline and7barton

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Ball weight : calibre
« on: April 13, 2009, 09:31:43 PM »
Can anyone tell me what the weight would be of a lead ball - 42 mm (or UK golfball), diameter ?
I want to buy a mould and they are only listed according to ball weight.
Thanks
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2009, 10:37:44 PM »
Can anyone tell me what the weight would be of a lead ball - 42 mm (or UK golfball), diameter ?
I want to buy a mould and they are only listed according to ball weight.
Thanks

 Nope. Can't tell you. It's a secret ;D

 http://lassengunsmithing.com/html/ShotWeight.htm
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Rickk

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 03:36:37 AM »
who are you going to buy it from?

I posted a chart a while back for "DO-IT" molds.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,97398.0.html

Rick

Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 05:01:26 AM »
I have ordered it from Davies' Tackle - a 14 oz ball mould - According to the seller it produces a suitable-sized ball.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2009, 05:02:59 AM »
Can anyone tell me what the weight would be of a lead ball - 42 mm (or UK golfball), diameter ?
I want to buy a mould and they are only listed according to ball weight.
Thanks

 Nope. Can't tell you. It's a secret ;D

 http://lassengunsmithing.com/html/ShotWeight.htm

Excellent ! - Thanks for that !
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »
A lead golf ball weighs almost exactly one pound.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 01:29:21 PM »
A lead golf ball weighs almost exactly one pound.

A real challange, even for Tiger Woods!   ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 02:17:49 PM »
It would be interesting to see a pro's driver after trying to propel a lead golf ball.

 ;D ;D ;D
GG
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Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 09:31:33 PM »
It would be interesting to see a pro's driver after trying to propel a lead golf ball.

 ;D ;D ;D

Well, apparently those little dimples in a golfball increase its range by lessening drag.
I wonder if there'd be an improvement in cannon range if we took a centre punch and dinged hundreds of little dents into a LEAD cannonball ?
I received the mould yesterday in double-quick time, and immediately went into my workshop and cast three balls - They all came out well....... even the first one with a cold mould !
It fits the bore nicely, with windage of around 3mm.
I can't wait to test them out !
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »
I've been shooting golf balls for a couple months now from my Parrot gun . Honestly I'm not impressed , I dont think the aerodynamics designed to be hit off a tee translate to the velocity of a cannon fired golf ball .

I used both saboted balls to where the balls never touch the bore ,and bare balls . They seem better with the sabot ,but in either case they go downrange in wild slices ,hooks and up or down/ no repeatablity to speack of .


"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 02:58:50 PM »
Ordinary golf balls have a random spin problem when shot from artillery.  From a club face, they are given a relatively uniform spin, at least when hit by a good golfer, and they travel in a fairly straight path. 

The vastly greater mass of a lead golf ball should cause the spin to be of lesser import although I have not fired lead ones from my golf ball bored pieces to verify this.  In this case, a smooth surface is a detriment so wrinkles from casting should be desirable for improved flight characteristics.

I used both saboted balls to where the balls never touch the bore, and bare balls.

Were the sabots permanently attached? 
GG
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Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 11:17:20 PM »
The balls came out very well from the 14 ounce mould. I've sprayed them with black paint.
I'd like to do some tests of range with various charge sizes....... I do have the opportunity to fire out to sea here, but problems arise with -
a. Spotting where the ball lands.
b. Measuring an accurate distance out to sea.
I'm thinking though - can we measure accurately the range by firing almost vertically (as in a thundermug elevation) and measuring the time taken for the ball to hit the ground ? - With the observer of course UNDER COVER !
Some simple maths should give us the vertical height. Am I correct in thinking this would be the same "flying time" as a lower trajectory, so a distance at any elevation can be extrapolated from it ?
 
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 02:02:42 AM »
I'm thinking though - can we measure accurately the range by firing almost vertically (as in a thundermug elevation) and measuring the time taken for the ball to hit the ground ? - With the observer of course UNDER COVER !

 If you try it, wear a cheap watch...

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,145667.0.html
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 08:03:53 AM »
I'm thinking though - can we measure accurately the range by firing almost vertically (as in a thundermug elevation) and measuring the time taken for the ball to hit the ground ? - With the observer of course UNDER COVER !

 If you try it, wear a cheap watch...

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,145667.0.html

I think, if it came down and hit my watch...... I'd be more worried about the state of my ARM than the watch !
I had a near miss from a big ten pound iron cannonball shot from my trebuchet. The sun was overhead........ we shot off the first throw and the hook angle was wrong, throwing the ball vertically....... Of course, we could see nothing overhead due to a dazzlingly bright sun......... So we all ran in different directions......... Unfortunately, my brother ran one way and I ran the other and we collided........ and the ball came down with a thump just two or three feet from us. That one was a sobering moment.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 12:44:37 AM »
Of course, we could see nothing overhead due to a dazzlingly bright sun......... So we all ran in different directions......... Unfortunately, my brother ran one way and I ran the other and we collided........ and the ball came down with a thump just two or three feet from us. That one was a sobering moment.


 Ahem.... "Dazzlingly bright." (I'm laughing with you, not at you  ;D).

 Somewhere I once saw a table for a modern mortar that was used to determine successive charges, barrel angles & firing intervals for given distances so that a number of shells would hit the target area at the same time (probably not much help :-\).

 I think you would need to start by determining the muzzle velocity of your cannon in order to do what you're wanting.

 Or.... An expendable individual wearing a cheap watch on a seaworthy raft might be useful.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 11:33:01 AM »
A lead golf ball weighs almost exactly one pound.

Soooo....golf ball guns are 1 guage then.  Interesting.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline and7barton

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2009, 01:20:03 PM »


I think you would need to start by determining the muzzle velocity of your cannon in order to do what you're wanting.
unquote -

But would that be necessary ? Given that the acceleration of objects in free fall is a well-known constant (see picture), and I think the upward deceleration is at the same rate (but the inverse of the downward path), then from the total time of flight, the maximum vertical altitude of the ball can be calculated. 
I don't think the muzzle velocity needs to be measured, although it can be calculated from the above time & height measurement.


Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2009, 04:22:15 PM »
...
I'm thinking though - can we measure accurately the range by firing almost vertically (as in a thundermug elevation) and measuring the time taken for the ball to hit the ground ? -
...

In a word, no.  Or perhaps not without some adjustment mathematically.

From experience, a few years back.

Firing the 4.5" mortar using 4" pvc pipe lengths filled with about 7.5 lbs of concrete.

Max range was about 450 yards, most going 400 or so.

One round fired almost vertically (the usual warnings of don't try this at home and "it seemed like a good idea at the time" apply).

First, the time of flight for the long range shots was about 9 to maybe 11 seconds.

Second, the time of flight for the near vertical shot was SEVERAL seconds shorter; implying that the angle of firing had some effect on time of flight.

I have not repeated the experiment formally.  It would seem reasonable to see if it were repeatable.

[Firing vertically a 4.5" diameter slug of concrete that is airborne for 6 - 8 seconds gives one a 'comfortable' amount of time to move (maybe not move the truck) as one watches it go up and come down.]

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2009, 07:09:37 PM »
"I think you would need to start by determining the muzzle velocity of your cannon in order to do what you're wanting."

But would that be necessary ? Given that the acceleration of objects in free fall is a well-known constant (see picture), and I think the upward deceleration is at the same rate (but the inverse of the downward path), then from the total time of flight, the maximum vertical altitude of the ball can be calculated.

I don't think the muzzle velocity needs to be measured, although it can be calculated from the above time & height measurement.


The problem with this thought is that you are neglecting air resistance in your assumptions but AR is almost two orders of magnitude greater than gravitational resistance.  Consider the following:

When your projectile is fired upward, it starts with the muzzle velocity (say 500 ft/sec.)  While moving upward, it loses velocity at the rate of 32 ft/sec2 from gravity plus some unknown loss (greater at higher velocities than lower ones) due to air resistance.  During its last second of vertical flight, air resistance is virtually zero and the shot moves 16 ft upward.  The initial velocity downward is zero and it is accelerated by gravity at 32 ft/sec2 and slowed down by air resistance, again by an unknown but variable amount.  At some point in the downward flight, these values will become equal and the shot will cease to accelerate--it has reached its terminal velocity (it will actually slow down a little from this point due to air density becoming greater at lower elevations but this can be ignored for this discussion.) 

My comments above are paraphrasing those of General Julian Hatcher in his discussion of vertical bullet flight; see Hatchers's Notebook, Section XX, page 511.

Am I correct in thinking this would be the same "flying time" as a lower trajectory, so a distance at any elevation can be extrapolated from it?

This is an incorrect assumption.  The height of the trajectory will be greater when fired vertically than at any other elevation, so the time of flight will be longer for a vertical shot than one fired at any other elevation.  Since the goal here was to determine how far a shot went when fired at some relatively horizontal trajectory, the time of flight will be much shorter than a vertical shot. 
 
It seems that either muzzle velocity needs to be approximated or actual distance determined.  If one could have two observers with transits spot the landing point of the shot, the distance could be determined from trigonometry.  You might also fire the shot on land and add a tail of red yarn or a narrow red strap to make finding the landed shot easier.  Range without the tail would certainly be greater than with but, again, we would have a verified minimum range. 

One could approximate the muzzle velocity by setting a couple of paper target sheets down range at a measured separation and time the interval between the shot hitting the first sheet and hitting the second sheet.  These techniques are pretty crude but at least we would get some reasonable numbers to play with.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2009, 07:30:41 PM »
 This might be usefull to determine at least one piece of the puzzle...

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2009, 07:59:03 PM »
I downloaded the program and ran it a few times and here are my observations:

It does not accept a caliber of greater than 1.00
It assumes a muzzle velocity of 1800 ft/sec
Its maximum input range is 600 yards
Its maximum calculation range appears to be 380 yds

I read somewhere in a book I bought from Precision Shooting a long time ago that round shot greater than .56 caliber do not obey the same drag rules as round shot of lesser diameter.  So I have some reservations about using this program for cannon size shot.
GG
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2009, 09:25:28 PM »
I read somewhere in a book I bought from Precision Shooting a long time ago that round shot greater than .56 caliber do not obey the same drag rules as round shot of lesser diameter.  So I have some reservations about using this program for cannon size shot.

 I don't know why that would be. And why the cutoff at .56? Would there also be a minimum diameter (nano-balls aside) below which the rules don't apply ???

 Interesting. Something to look into...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2009, 09:28:35 PM »
I don't know why that would be.

I don't either; I'll have to look around and see if I can find the book.  The author was someone of note, not just some hack gun writer.
GG
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2009, 11:00:06 PM »

One round fired almost vertically (the usual warnings of don't try this at home and "it seemed like a good idea at the time" apply).

LOL! You forgot "hold my beer."
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Victor3

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Re: Ball weight : calibre
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 12:25:33 AM »
 and7barton,

 The other day at the toy store with my Son I saw a little electric motor R/C boat for $60.

 If you could tow a beach ball with the boat and send it out to the area you want to shoot to, you might be able to get a distance off of it with a laser range finder.

 I didn't think to check the distance the radio would work to...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes