Author Topic: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court  (Read 2273 times)

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Offline Lee Robinson

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Why have some states been able to "get away with" regulating the 2nd ammendment when it is clearly written "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Also, in other areas of the Constitution and Bill of Rights it discusses the various aspects of protecting and securing "individual rights" to maintain a government by the people for the people. If one reads the constitution, it is clear the entire thing is not written "for government" but for the people to protect them against corrupt governments.

So, this being the case...why has "local government" and/or "states" been able to restrict/infringe upon a right that is given and guaranteed by the ultimate laws of our land...the US Constitution.

If you are not a member of the NRA...IMO, you don't deserve a firearm. This IMO is our first REAL defense to protect our rights. I would like to ask others on this board that are not a member of the NRA to reconsider their position and join them today. If it isn't worth protecting, it isn't worth having. If it is worth having, then it is worth protecting. They fight to protect our rights, and now with Biden as VP...we need to make sure the NRA is stronger than ever.

Thank you.
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Offline docmagnum357

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2008, 12:46:04 PM »
I am a life member of the NRA, well, easy pay life, anyway.  I am also a certified pistol instructor.  I have a lot against the Nra.  The main thing is that they are just another lobbying group, supported by people motivated by emotion and retoric.  It is true, however, that they are the most effective gun lobbying group, and that they are the only organization with a nationally recognized training program.  They even train some police officers, in different places. 

I think that the constitution means what it says, "...shall not be infringed."  There should be no restrictions on any weapons that are suitable for the militia.  Period.  This goes far, far beyond guns, and includes explosive devices, rockets, anti tank weapons, etc.  It is an assinine joke to think that you or I could defend ourselves against a government that was completely out of control.  We might sting them, but they would prevail. They have the men and machinery to fight a protracted war, they just don't have the will, yet.  Where does the NRA stand on fully automatic weapons, land mines( one of the most effective tools for resisting a superior force), and explosives in the average citizen's hands?  I think we know the answer there.

I would like to see the NRA do what it was designed to do, which is promote private ownership of firearms.  If we are going to see the second ammendment preserved, we need to put rifles and pistols in the hands of as many citizens as possible.  Driving an automobile will never be outlawed, because ownership and use of automobiles is universal.  The constitution never guarenteed the right to keep and drive horseless carriages, but try to "infringe" on that "right".  The NRA would spend it's considerable resources far more effectively by buyilding shooting ranges, and by promoting concealed carry, hunting, and target shooting.  They already have a monopoly on training for civilians, why don't they take advantage of it and actually teach ther public to shoot?  The club I belong to never has a day when the public can come and take a Basic pistol or rifle or shotgun course.  Never.  But they sure do want to see that NRA membership card before you renew your membership in the club.  Send your money to the lobbyists in Washington, boys, but don't you dare bring a member of the public in here and give them a Basic Pistol or rifle course.

It is obvious to me that if we had almost universal firearms ownership and use in this country, there would be no use for the NRA, or any other pro gun, or anti gun lobby.  So the answer is simply, really.  Pay the rat b@$t@rd$ your membership dues, but try to always take a new person shooting with you.  Once we have enough of "us", then we won't need the NRA, or any other lobby to help us. Getting as concealed carry permit, and actually carrying your handgun is also a really good way to promote responsible firearms use.

 


Offline michael c

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2008, 02:12:12 PM »
I think that the best way to encourage the second amendment is to encourage people like this:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/article883277.ece
http://www.tampabay.com/writers/article380993.ece
A young, African-American woman originally from Washington DC who has a concealed carry permit is worth ten older white conservative lifelong hunters in proving the point that defensive gun use is a universal civil right.  If you encourage her, and allow her the time to become comfortable with firearms, she will be a wonderful ally.  If you launch into a stream of vitriol about how horrible certain liberals are, you will alienate her.  As a liberal who is also as pro-2A as they come, I can guarantee you that I have been much more effective at changing anti-gun perspectives than most conservatives.  I think that too much money has been spent preaching to the choir, and not enough on REAL and FACTUAL education about gun ownership.  Why is the NRA not doing public education campaigns about how many fewer crimes concealed carry permittees commit vs. those without permits?  They are too unwilling to focus on non-traditional groups.  And yes, I am an NRA member.  I just want them to expand their horizons, and focus on the civil rights aspects.  In urban areas, make contacts, and run ads explaining that the first gun-control laws were meant to control Black citizens, not guns.
We (as gun-owners) need to encourage people like Robbyn.  History is not what will ensure the continued freedom to bear arms.  A generation of people comfortable with shall-issue concealed carry permits is much more effective.  The best way to make sure people aren't irrationally afraid of guns is to make sure that they have positive exposure to them.  I agree wholeheartedly with what Doc said about the NRA supporting shooting ranges and shooting programs... especially in urban and suburban areas.

Offline jimster

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2008, 03:37:45 PM »
The way I read it, the second amendment, or any of them, don't give you the right of anything.  It says we already had those rights, as free people, and government can not infringe upon those "pre existing" rights. 
So I guess I don't have to be an NRA member either.  I do strongly believe that you should be somewhat of an activist though, and it's probably a darn good idea to give something one of the organizations that stand behind the 2nd.  The founding fathers already warned us we would probably have to actually fight to keep our freedoms at some point,  let's hope a little activism keeps that from happening.

Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2008, 04:03:39 PM »
I agree that local gun organizations should take oppertunity to educate locals and visitors about proper gun use.

I also agree that one good way to ensure gun rights is for people in this country to be armed and to carry...and for this right to be practiced by more of our citizens.

I have a CC permit, and carry where I am permitted to do so.

I also think it would be good for the NRA to "step out of the white conservatives" more often as well...

BUT, I would NEVER give up my support for that organization because they are the strongest pro-gun rights organization in the country and they still need our support. Are they emotional? Yes, but I am too...because this is a serious topic to me. I have no reason to think they don't mean what they say in their "propaganda" as I most certainly agree with a great deal of it. They have my support.

BTW, (if we are going to discuss the idea of militia vs government)...I understand the idea that the military is too strong for individually armed citizens..., but I would like to remind you that wars are really won with infantry over time...and a great many military men would "turn" if their rights as individuals were thrown away...and many of these military men would form militia...and they would have access to that fancy equipment. History has shown examples of how military forces and executive branches in the past have at times overthrown the goverment to regain a power when the people and/or military viewed legislative and judicial governments to be out of line? If the government and the people were on opposing sides, there is a good chance the military would actually be on the side of the people...and with the help of civilian based militia take such a government back to a "by the people, for the people" way. Anyway, that can turn into another long topic...

My only point is the NRA really deserves our support so things can be prevented BEFORE they go any further than the legislative level.
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Offline jimster

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 11:54:16 AM »
I'm still giving the NRA my support, but they best start getting back to the roots and start training the people they have that constantly call my home.
They are starting to make me mad, again.  Last call I got, they proceeded to tell me how we needed to protect the second amendment or we would not be able to hunt.  I had to educate this person over the phone and tell them the second amendment had nothing to do with hunting, and advised them to get a different approach as there are many people who know that hunting has nothing to do with it, and lot's of people don't hunt...but do shoot guns. 
They are starting to remind me of some political party that forgot their roots and their whole meaning.  They best clean it up because there are other organizations that look better to me.  I am glad they run all over the country and get involved in court cases, and they do Lot's of things for the young people too, but there are some parts that need fixing pretty bad. 

Jim

Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 01:02:04 PM »
Jimster,

With all they do in court for your rights to own a gun, you should extend them a little leadway and take a chill pill. Think about this...

SERIOUSLY. If THEY go to courts and fight for gun rights...for whatever reason, then THEY protect our rights more so than ANY OTHER organization. If they said that anti-gun legislation attacks your rights to not just own a gun, but also to hunt...well...think about it. Without the right to own guns for defense or a militia...then you will end up loosing your guns. And if you don't have any guns, you won't be hunting with a gun. So, if loose your rights to own a gun (even if for defense or to form a militia), you will loose your right to hunt with a gun...as you won't have a gun.

Think about that.

Now, if you don't want to support them, fine...but if you own a gun you should. You most certainly shouldn't get upset with them though for using any and all reasonable approaches to work to protect your rights. If you don't want to support them, then be prepared to lose your guns some day...as the anti-gun groups continue to grow and continue to attack this right with "local and state legislation"...aka...gun bans. Take a look at California and Illinois. Take a look at countries like Australia and Europe.

BTW, have you ever read the Constitition and its Ammendments (the Bill of Rights) from beginning to end? If not, I suggest you do so.
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 05:52:32 PM »
The nine guys in black robes either can't or won'r read english and the house and senate like it that way. so what it says din't mean diddly
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Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 02:12:33 AM »
With the NRA there in court...the supreme court was required to read it and take it at its word...and we won this time.
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Offline jimster

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 05:04:24 AM »
Lee...I do support them, but they have people calling our homes that are rude and don't even probably know know about gun rights themselves, or so it seems sometimes. 
I've been putting up with that part of the nonsense for sometime now...last time I moved my address changed, some guy from the NRA called because he thought my membership ran out (it didn't, I always send in the money plus some)...and he had the gall to ask me if I was waiting for payday or what?  Imagane that.  Asking me if I was waiting for payday...how nice.  I did bring up that there were other oraganizations as well we could also support, it wouldn't hurt to attack from different angles either.  "You most certainly shouldn't get upset with them though for using any and all reasonable approaches to work to protect your rights.".....sorry...I have EVERY right to get upset with anyone who calls my house and makes me feel lousy...that is as much of a right as me owing my guns...and I do hunt...and I do carry them with me daily as well. 

I'm only saying they best get it together on the people calling our homes....if they can get a guy like me thinking about running away from them...think about what they do to other people.


Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 05:57:46 AM »
With all they do for us...speaking in court for our rights when my voice and your voice will otherwise go unheard...I gladly welcome an irritating phone call once every year or so.

Let US remember to keep things in perspective...and to look at the bigger picture.
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Offline docmagnum357

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 04:45:00 AM »
Guys, Ive got an idea that has been cooking in my mind a long time.  Our district attorney has had several of these "gun buy back" programs.  I'm sure most of you who live in an urban area have seen this travesty.  If the NRA really believes thier retoric, why not have a "gun give away".  Find ten people in a high crime area, and make sure they are reputable.  Put them through a concealed carry course, give them a good handgun and good leather for it, and membership to a gun club where they could train.  I would personally be glad to get them certified for free, as a ccw instructor.  Why won't NRA, or any of the other big gun rights groups do this?


Offline glshop20

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 AM »
I t is real funny that only in the second ammendment does the phrase "the right of the people" needs to be interpreted.  Many of the ammendments use the phrase "the right of the people" or citizens and no one questions the meaning or intention.

The second ammendment needs no interpretation.  It states a persons rights as an American plain and simple.  It is a shame that the government bends and twists laws and the constitution to achieve their goals.

Offline torpedoman

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 03:10:33 PM »
here is the root of our problem. george washington univ. law proffessor Mary cheh says "none of your constutional rights are absolute" She is also a wash. D.C. councilwoman. Now if someone this well educated cant read and understand english we really need to outlaw higher education.
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Offline docmagnum357

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 03:41:03 PM »
I hope everyone understands I still support NRA.  My post sounds a little hard on them, and i meant for it to, but I still support them.  Like someone else said, they are the only game in town, and I wouldn't want them silenced. I just see and hear "snake oil salesman" every time I see or hear a certain "executive" with the NRA.  A lot of my angst really should be directed at my local club, and it is being so directed more and more.  CCW has saved the amrerican gun manufactures, and may well save the second ammendment.  It has brought a lot of "regular Joes " into the pro gun camp.  Let's all pray they don't have to save the Republic as well.

I think there should be a T.V. show made from the Ayoob Files.  Instead of "Cops", it could be called "Armed and Dangerous", or "America's Stupidest Crooks".

It would also be nice to force mandatory education on the United States Constitution into the curiculum of every high school in America.  They can teach little kids it's all right to be " gay", they can teach the "theory " of evolution as fact, why can't they make each citizen aware of his God given rights, and the document that protects them?  Why can't they teach the basic tenants that protect these activities, and ideas?  Freedom of speech is open to the witch as well as the baptist preacher, the preist as well as the transvestite.  Don't you think our young people need  little education as to why?  Our country would be changed in a generation if we taught the constitution and the bill of rights.  Now, I wonder, who could possibly be against that?

Offline billy_56081

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 03:52:42 PM »
Just suppose if you all will for a moment, imagine if we had a house and senate that was very liberal and anti gun, and also a President and VP that were very liberal and anti gun. Now that we're supposing this, lets suppose that they decided to impeach a few justices that were considered conservative. Can anything be done to stop them?

Now we are just supposin aint we?
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline 44 Man

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 12:57:44 AM »
Or suppose we foolishly elected an anti gun President.  And he questioned his appointee's to make sure they were all also anti-gun.  Then he would just appoint an anti-gun Attorney General that simply would chose to ignore our 'Heller' gains and not prosecute the cities that still refuse us our rights?  Oh!  Sorry!  We just did that!  44 Man
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Offline darrell8937

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2009, 09:31:09 AM »
We would not stand a chance against the military But!! 
I was a soldier and we often talked about things like this.
What is a lawful order. etc.. How far would you let you goverment go etc. Country first etc.  Best thing to do is educate you kids. Read the constitution. etc. The fight is long. But must be won.

Offline BBF

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2009, 12:19:52 PM »
IMNHO that fight started a long time ago with folks that had no clue it was on and won't have a clue until the fight is over.
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2009, 01:26:15 PM »
  I'm still waiting for a secret Executive Order instructing NICS to stop answering the phone ::) Imagine the mess that would cause to gun owners/gun buyers.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2009, 01:48:43 PM »
  I'm still waiting for a secret Executive Order instructing NICS to stop answering the phone ::) Imagine the mess that would cause to gun owners/gun buyers.

Isn't there a time limt and after that amount of time the buy is allowed?
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Mohawk

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2009, 01:52:29 PM »
  I'm still waiting for a secret Executive Order instructing NICS to stop answering the phone ::) Imagine the mess that would cause to gun owners/gun buyers.

Isn't there a time limt and after that amount of time the buy is allowed?

  There is but they have to answer the phone first. I think the clock starts when they say"Delay".

Offline billy_56081

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2009, 02:20:27 PM »
OK thanks for the info.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline user

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 03:03:17 PM »
Why have some states been able to "get away with" regulating the 2nd ammendment when it is clearly written "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

...why has "local government" and/or "states" been able to restrict/infringe upon a right that is given and guaranteed by the ultimate laws of our land...the US Constitution....

Here's the answer.  The Amendment clearly imposes a restriction on the Congress of the United States.  The whole Bill of Rights is a set of restrictions on what the United States can do.  The states' own constitutions regulate what they can do, not the Bill of Rights.  The exception to that general rule is what's called the "selective incorporation doctrine".  That says that the "due process clause" of the Fourteenth Amendment (which does apply to the states) incorporates certain specific aspects of the Bill of Rights, but only those identified in Supreme Court decisions that find that those provisions do apply to the states.  The Second Amendment has never been held to have been so incorporated.

Heller, thus, applies in the United States, but not in any particular member state.  E.g., in the District of Columbia, in federal reservations such as military bases and national parks, in territories and possessions, such as the U.S. Virgin Islands and Guam.  But pro-crime states, such as Hawaii, Michegan, Illinois, Maryland, New York, and New Jersey are limited only by their own constitutions (and I'm not sure their courts pay much attention to them).

Offline VARMONTER

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Re: 2nd ammendment rights guaranteed by the constitution...& supreme court
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2009, 03:10:38 PM »
Guys, Ive got an idea that has been cooking in my mind a long time.  Our district attorney has had several of these "gun buy back" programs.  I'm sure most of you who live in an urban area have seen this travesty.  If the NRA really believes thier retoric, why not have a "gun give away".  Find ten people in a high crime area, and make sure they are reputable.  Put them through a concealed carry course, give them a good handgun and good leather for it, and membership to a gun club where they could train.  I would personally be glad to get them certified for free, as a ccw instructor.  Why won't NRA, or any of the other big gun rights groups do this?



 ;D ;D  I like that idea.

  I live in the only state in the union that considers my right to carry concealed just that..A Right!!.
All other states consider it a privilege.And require permitting..Like a drivers license..I am not always
sure about folks not receiving any training and ccw'ing ..But If I choose to do so it is my right.
So I applaud Vermont !! And I Applaud Alaska who i think actually has it better in that If a citizen wants a permit to carry the state will issue one.Here in Vt the state does not have a permit process.
  If you can legally own the gun you can legally carry it concealed..It is our right donchaknow.
   But no other state recips because VT does not issue permits. :(
  So i support the NRA And I wish They would do stuff like docmagnum357 suggests..I would consider
in that instance.. My money to be well spent..

Offline 44 Man

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I beg to differ with user.  Michigan does have it's problems.  Detroit (and surrounding areas) are a mess, and we have a govenor that's having PMS, BUT we do have a 'shall issue' carry permit system.  If you meet the qualification, they MUST issue you a carry permit.  We fought for that for years.  Before that it was 'may' issue and if you were in a pro gun county, fine.  If you were not, you would never get one unless you made the proper donations to the proper re-election funds.  But that's behind us now.  Financially Michigan is screwed up, but we to have a good carry system in place.  (well, except for the silly 'gun free' zones written into it, we're working on those now)  Cute sidebar, the now-govenor when she was running anounced that she didn't like the CCW and would try to eleminate them.  When she was approaced by our group, AND FOUND OUT HOW MANY VOTES WE CARRIED, we switched sides, and we've heard no more from her since.  I love a good politician that puts their political future ahead of their principals.  How disgusting!  But it did work in our favor.  44 Man
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Offline Mikey

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"I love a good politician that puts their political future ahead of their principals.  How disgusting!"  Then you really must like arlen specter.............................

Offline Tracer

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Its our duty as citizens to protect the constitution from all enemies whether from outside our borders or from within.  T

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.

Abraham Lincoln; March 4, 1861