possible to safely load bullets designed for 7.62x39 in 30-06 or 308?

[Dand]

Can folks speak to the potential safety and potential accuracy of loading some 123 fmj bullets intended for the 7.62x39 in a 30-06 or 308?  I get the impression some 7.62x39 rifles have a nominal 308 bore but can digest the .311 bullets ok, so what about in larger cases?  I have a friend who has need of a 30 cal fmj bullet of about the 123 - 130 gr range for some specialized shooting. 110 gr M1 carbine bullets are a little small and might not carry well or be sufficiently accurate.  The standard 150 fmj type bullets are more than he needs.

Is it silly to consider this idea or could it work safely?  I expect it would depend some on how tight the chamber is and chamber throat too.

I thought I'd ask the question, see if anybody else has tried it or has advice.
thanks,  Dan

[Lloyd Smale]

it would probably work fine. Ive actually done it but i dont load them to max velocity. A much better way to go about this is to buy a lee cast bullet sizing die for about 25 bucks and run those bullets through a 308 or 309 sizing die. The lee dies work with any loading press and the 311s sized down easy. It eliminates problems like the bullet being to fat for the chamber and any chance it will elevate pressures.

[stimpylu32]

Yep , what he said , the Lee sizer would take all the guess work out of the load .

stimpy

[Graybeard]

The problem is the bullets are gonna be about .312" in diameter and the bore is .308". Yeah it gets done but does raise pressures and can do so rather dramatically. Just how light to load is the problem and you're NOT gonna find pressure tested data to tell you. You'd do better to just buy some 125/130 grain .308 bullets for which safe load data is available.

[Dand]

good points all. I was thinking it would be nice to be able to swage them down but using a Lee die never occurred to me - sounds like a good idea. 

I recognize the concerns you mention GB - a FMJ bullet is the best for the intended use - I'm afraid the standard 125 -130 gr softnoses would be too explosive.

I'm not sure if I'll try it but if I do I'd start with a very light load. Probably try the swaging idea too if I do this at all - seems like it would be a lot safer and closer to proper bullet diameter.  I have a Lee size die for .348 so I'm familiar with how they work - pretty well really.

thanks all.

Dan

[Graybeard]

You are NOT gonna swage a jacket bullet using a Lee lead bullet sizer. Ain't happening. To begin with making jacketed bullets smaller than they began life isn't called swaging anyway the process has a different name which escapes me at the moment. At least I think that's what I remember. Check out the swaging forum for more info. Swaging equipment is super expensive and it's far cheaper to buy your bullets than to buy swaging equipment.

[mechanic]

We used to buy 30 cal bullets from Speer that weighed in abt. 100 gr. for my Dads TC in 30-30.  Someone I feel sure still makes them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Bill ive ran 312 bullets in a lee 309 sizer die before. JUst tumble them in tumble lube like a cast bullet and run them through and tumble them in your tumbler afterward to clean them.  Bill where this all came from is back years ago i had a ruger mine 30 that had a 308 bore. I came accross a pile of pull down 312 bullets. I figured i was best off sizing them down. Found later that even usized they worked fine and didnt give any pressure problems using loads out of any manual. The gun allways ran wolf ammo fine too and it was loaed with 312 bullets.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           quote author=Graybeard link=topic=172855.msg1098812031#msg1098812031 date=1241752727]
You are NOT gonna swage a jacket bullet using a Lee lead bullet sizer. Ain't happening. To begin with making jacketed bullets smaller than they began life isn't called swaging anyway the process has a different name which escapes me at the moment. At least I think that's what I remember. Check out the swaging forum for more info. Swaging equipment is super expensive and it's far cheaper to buy your bullets than to buy swaging equipment.
[/quote]

[Robert357]

A few comments.

I have a .32Auto insert that I have used in 30-06 rifle.  The .32 Auto bullet is .312.  Such a bullet will work in a .308 bore.  Not something I would do everyday as I would be concerned about barrel wear.

I have done cast bullet shooting and tried .32-20 (.313 inch) bullets in .308 bores.  They work, but if the bullet is too light, I don't seem to get good stabilization.  I have shot the 123 grain (7.62x39) bullets in my Russian MN (7.62x54R) and it works just fine, in fact it is about the most accurate round I have worked up, so a 123 grain bullet should work well in an similarily sized large case (i.e. .308 or 30-06 brass) rifle if the twist rate is similar.

I think that the Lee sizing die idea is interesting and since I have some sizing dies from the cast bullet loads I have done, I will have to try that when I get a chance.  This could open up an interesting opportunity, especially, once the ammo and reloading component market restabalizes and "pulled" military surplus bullets come on the market again.  Actually, since mil-surp ammo seems to be about the only loaded ammo readily available, it might be time to try this if I run out of rifle reloading components.

[iiranger]

First, the gun. If the case with the oversized bullet won't go into the chamber... forget it. If it will, as suggested, pressure might be a bit higher. Strong possibility in commercial guns. Custom chambers, less likely.

Mr. Ackley in his books tells of an experiment. Silly fools were buying surplus 8mm to shoot in Springfields (yes, .30/'06. "Well, all soldier rifles shoot the same ammo? Don't they???" Ah... no...) He rechambered a .30 barrel to 8x57. No problems firing surplus 8x57 ammo. Accuracy wasn't. No big notice in pressure change. The Springfields that "blew up" were "cut up" by escaping gas from the 8x57 case that split because it wasn't supported.

If you are going to do a big bunch or desire great precision (ha, ha), corbin and others, ch4d.com for example, sell a "ring die" that most presses permit you to shove the bullet in and come out the smaller size. Classic high pressure lubes are lanolin, any drug store, or castor oil. Or you can mix them...

A cast bullet resize die is going to be worked beyond its design limits by a jacketed bullet but well lubed, lot cheaper than the ring dies. And if ou break one, might not break the next as soon... Your budget.

You will get some "core bleed." It squirts out. This small reduction shouldn't be a problem. Mr. Corbin has pictures of .323 to .318 in his books.

and you don't do this to make target grade bullets. They will go bang, but ... enjoy, luck.

[Steve P]

.32-20 and 32H&R barrels made by TC are .308 bores.  Factory ammo shoot in them fine, and can be very accurate.   I have both of these barrels and if I came across some 100-120 grain bullets in .310 or .311, I would grab them in a minute to load at .32-20 and 32H&R pressures.  I would not exceed pressures for these calibers.

If you load up some 123 gr .311 or .312 bullets with in a .308 or .30-06 and use book loads designed for .308 125gr bullets, you may get some pressures you won't like.

Steve

[Larry Gibson]

Dand

It's quite safe and many, including me, do it all the time.  Just work up the load as usual. The .311 bullet is swaged down to .308 in the first bearing length of travel in the barrel before the pressure curve is high.  I have measured the pressure of 125 gr Sierra .311 and .308 bullets in the .308W with the same load using a M43.  Peak pressure was pretty much the same with the .311 bullet's Time pressure curve being slightly faster is all.  The load was with H335 with velocities 3000+ fps and psi's in the mid 50,000 psi range.  I shoot lots of milsurp AK/SKS bullets in several .30 cals like I said.

Also if one has a "worn" or "shot out" .30 cal try some 150-180 .311 Sierra's in it. You might be surprised at how well she shoots again.

Larry Gibson

[Dand]

I appreciate the extended discussion folks. Some one mentioned a 30-06 to 32 ACP adapter, like one I bought on the classifieds here a month ago.  It was that purchase and reading about the 308 bores of Ruger Mini 30's that got me thinking about this project.  And the fact that my friend is wishing for an FMJ load in the 125 gr range. the 110's are  too small and 150's too big. I might proceed very carefully with this - first to see if an "unsqueezed" .311/.312 bullet seated in 30-06 brass will even chamber in my gun. Probably will tho as my '06 is a 1952 vintage Win 70.  But the bore has lots of tool marks and is pretty rough so I'd want to start with a very mild load - probably using IMR 4895.  I thought about cast bullets instead as I have a likely mold. But I don't know if I can get the velocity I'd want. Might have to look into the Lee Size die option. Maybe lube the bullets with Imperial wax or some SPG.  I have a Lyman 309 size die but my old Lyman 45 lube tool might not have the leverage for this operation.

Any other suggestions?  I sure appreciate that safety is stressed by so many. Tahnks

[Larry Gibson]

Dand

No the Lyman 450 will not be strong enough to swage the jacketed bullets.  The discusion involved Lee sizers which are used in a reloading press.  Try the .311 bullets in the neck of a well fire formed case from your rifle.  If the bullet is a slip fit (probably will be) in the unsized expanded case neck then it will chamber. Use the 4895 and work up from 55% case capcity (to base of seated bullet or bottom of neck).  If the velocity you want is in the 2500+ fps range then 4895 will do. However if you are wanting a velocity under that then 2400, 4227, 4198, 4759 or 5744 are much better choices.  My preference would be 4227 or 4759. 

Larry Gibson

[Dand]

thanks Larry - I was pretty sure the old Lyman won't do the job. I have used the Lee sizers, just need a 30 cal one. Thanks for the slip fit tip and powder suggestions. I might even have some of the 335 also suggested. I want a pretty fast stepping load (2500 - 3000) for the use planned.