Author Topic: Digital scales (Read 1009 times)

mechanic · « **on:** May 04, 2009, 11:44:08 AM »

Some of the flyers that I get from "un-named" shooting supply places have digital scales at less than $30.00. Accuracy is less than .01gr it states. Have you guys used these, and do you trust them? My balance scale got whacked off the bench, and I no longer trust it at all, can't get it to balance. This digital looks good but...............

merkelerk · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:03:00 PM »

I had an inexpensive one from MEC, it worked great and saved time.
However..... It stopped reading accurately, and I found that I was checking it against my ballance beam scale or calibrating it so often that I just returned it to the store for a credit.

I suspect that it was my fault, I did knock it off of my bench once and these things are delicate.

If you buy one, check it against a known accurate scale every ten loads or so, you will find that you can trickle in the extra you need and never have to wait for the beam to stop moving.

I intend to buy another one as soon as possible.

smith85619 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:08:04 PM »

I have the one you are referring to, it is very accurate. My only beef with it is, it is battery operated and does not stay on so you constantly have to turn it back on and re-calibrate it. I only use it now to double check my beam scales then put it away. My next set of digital scales will be of the 110vac variety.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2009, 09:25:15 AM »

I dont trust them at all.
RFI from wiring, florecent lights, radios, can have an effect on them.
I have seen them off as much as 32 milligrams. (= to .5gr)
I used to use them to measure out balancing weights in RC Gas Motor crankshafts.
Be advise that if check at 15grs it may be off at 25gr. Vis Versa.
I have used all kinds of brands and @ all different prices and none of them has been as accurate as they should be.
I once was weighing a part and when the TV in the other room was turned on it dropped 21milligrams. (= to .3 grains)
Another time a buddy of mine was using his CB radio and the scale jumped 60milligrams (almost a grain).
Nothing like a mechanical scale to know that your weight is right.

skb2706 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2009, 10:28:05 AM »

Mechanical scales have just as many pitfalls as do electronic ones. The original poster stated his fell off the bench and he no longer trusts it...go figure. I have had digital scales for fifteen years and if used as they are designed there is nothing wrong with using them. A decent set of check weights, which bascially never change in weight will confirm any question with either. I have both but far and away the electronic is quicker and just as reliable....only use one that plugs into 110 VAC. Follow simple instructions about where to use them and how....no problems.

mechanic · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2009, 11:24:27 AM »

I have two Lyman balance beam scales. I also have the test kit with weights to test them with. Brand new, both were off a smidgen. One of them got to where it was "hanging" then releasing suddenly, thats why I bought the second.

My practice when loading with powders like Bullseye, is to weigh up a charge, then take a shell casing and make a "scoop" by cutting it down to the right height. I then just "scoop" a charge into the scales, and verify. I save these scoops for my favorite loads and have them marked.

When a scale won't weigh the "scoop" the same something is wrong.

Before I dropped the second scale, I could drop the same amount of Bulleye time after time, and use a trickler to even it up.

Now the scale weighs the same scoop as much as a grain different.

I know I need new scales, but I'm still debating which one.

Luckyducker · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2009, 12:04:58 PM »

I am on my second balance beam scale. I also bought one of the cheaper Electronic scales and it is accurate but you have to re-weigh every time you trickle powder into the pan because once the scale gives a reading it is locked until you remove the pan and start over. I just use this scale to weigh bullets and brass now. My first Bal beam scale (RCBS 5-0-5) worked great until it started to hang up and I'd have to touch the beam to get it started so I replaced it with an RCBS 1010 and it is accurate but I still like some of the features on the old 505.

merkelerk · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2009, 02:45:34 PM »

The fixed size scoop (out of a brass case or Lee scoop) work nice but......

-You have to fill them exactly the same way every time (push it down through the powder and let it fill over the top).
-You have to card off the over-fill exactly the same every time.
-Some powders settle and the finer, broken pieces (extruded powders) will migrate to the bottom of the container. Once you start scooping from the bottom of the barrel, you will find the same scoop weighs in a bit heavier than when the container was new.

mechanic · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM »

Quote from: merkelerk on May 05, 2009, 02:45:34 PM

The fixed size scoop (out of a brass case or Lee scoop) work nice but......

-You have to fill them exactly the same way every time (push it down through the powder and let it fill over the top).
-You have to card off the over-fill exactly the same every time.
-Some powders settle and the finer, broken pieces (extruded powders) will migrate to the bottom of the container. Once you start scooping from the bottom of the barrel, you will find the same scoop weighs in a bit heavier than when the container was new.

Yep, been using them a while with good results. But when I use a powder like Bullseye, or when I'm close to max. on anything, I verify each one with a scale.

With a good scale, the scoop will deliver the exact amount of powder every time. I always make the scoop just a little short, and trickle the last bit in on the scale. That way I'm double checking as I go. I don't worry so much with rifle powder, esp. where a full charge is almost a full case, but you can double charge Bullseye in a heartbeat.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:43:42 PM »

I am a newbie reloader...
Regarding to the previous few posts:
So can I assume that using a scoop you are going for quantity and less for quality?

Sorry, dumb question, but sometimes us newbies just gotta ask... $:-\$

MnMike · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2009, 06:18:14 PM »

Two points:

One to Mr James.
Some consider volume measurement a better way to dispense powder, rather than weight. Richard Lee is one.

Second on digital scales.
I use one, ($22 on E bay) and check it often against a balance scale and known weights. I also center the powder pan when weighing, I have seen a bit of difference when the pan is off center. I have tried a few tests with RF and random electrical noise. After a year, no problems.

Use what you trust, but check everything often.

mike

merkelerk · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2009, 06:20:47 PM »

I think what everyone is looking for in reloading is "Repeatability".

Once you have worked up a good load, you want to be able to make them exactly the same every time and with as little fuss as possible.
If your charge varies from cartridge to cartridge, you can not make consistent shots. The degree of care given to any one load is determined by what you want the load to do, 3 inch groups at 100 yards will allow for some elbow room in charge weight, 1/2 inch groups will require more precise powder charges.

helotaxi · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2009, 06:29:43 PM »

A scoop works on the same principle as a powder measure and that is that a constant volume of the same powder will have the same weight, so rather than weighing each charge, you measure it quickly by volume and use the same volume every time. Kinda standard practice to weigh every 10th charge or so out of a measure to make sure that the screw hasn't slipped.

I have a digital scale and it's the only scale I've ever had. I know the weight of the pan and know that if it's off more than a couple 10ths of a grain when I remove the pan it's time to rezero or recalibrate the scale.

mechanic · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2009, 01:02:18 AM »

Quote from: MrJames680 on May 05, 2009, 05:43:42 PM

I am a newbie reloader...
Regarding to the previous few posts:
So can I assume that using a scoop you are going for quantity and less for quality?

Sorry, dumb question, but sometimes us newbies just gotta ask... $:-\$

Not a dumb question. I prefer not to use a powder measure that attaches to my press, even though I have one. Sometime it "clogs" and doesn't drop correctly. To achieve the same effect I use a scoop or dipper. As I pointed out in a previous post, I still weigh each charge, but this is a quick way to get almost the dead on amount of powder into the scale. Truth be told, I can dip very consistently, and when I trickle powder onto the scale to balance the load, it is such a miniscule amt. as to not hardly be noticeable. I weigh EVERY charge when using a fast powder. On some ball powders I will use just the scoop. All powder charges were done by volume once, and the practice once mastered is just a accurate as any. But for me, it is instant verification. I have the dipper, then the scale, each verifying the other.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2009, 01:35:23 AM »

thats because lees cheap measure works that way. Look at some of the other junk he makes and i sure would follow his lead when it came to precission loading. Look at any benchrest shooter and youll find the weight there charges. A powder dispensor is a great tool. It works great with ball powders but i dont trust one to do extruded powders. I have two pact scales and like them. One is used on a pact dispensor and thats how i do extruced powder. I also have on of the frankford arsenol cheap battery powered scales and found it handy for wieghting bullets but id never trust it for wieghting powder.

Quote from: MnMike on May 05, 2009, 06:18:14 PM

Two points:

One to Mr James.
Some consider volume measurement a better way to dispense powder, rather than weight. Richard Lee is one.

Second on digital scales.
I use one, ($22 on E bay) and check it often against a balance scale and known weights. I also center the powder pan when weighing, I have seen a bit of difference when the pan is off center. I have tried a few tests with RF and random electrical noise. After a year, no problems.

Use what you trust, but check everything often.

mike

cjclemens · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:32:06 AM »

I use Lyman powder dispenser/digital scale, and it works great - even with extruded powders. Occasionally it goes a little too fast and drops a bit heavy, but all you have to do is dump a little out and reweigh. The dispenser/scale combo's are expensive, but totally worth it if you do a lot of reloading.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2009, 09:17:31 AM »

merkelerk has mentioned something interesting in this quote...

Quote

Some powders settle and the finer, broken pieces (extruded powders) will migrate to the bottom of the container. Once you start scooping from the bottom of the barrel, you will find the same scoop weighs in a bit heavier than when the container was new.

Regarding this issue, this means to me that by the time you get to the bottom of the container, the powder has been broken down in to smaller pieces. Even if you weigh out a correct charge (or even by volume) the powder will have a different burn characteristic.

Two questions:
1) How much does this effect accuracy or velocity?
2) What can be done to get uniform charges through the entire use of a container of powder?

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2009, 09:31:07 AM »

I've toyed with the idea of buying what I assume is the same scale from Midsouth Shooters Supply a GBO Sponsor and my main source of supply for all my reloading and hunting stuff. I was gonna get it just to have on my shotshell loading bench so I could weight charges without getting up to move to the RCBS digital I've been using for it seems like forever. But I wound up buying a Lyman DPS 1200 for my primary so moved the RCBS to the shotshell bench instead.

I've used nothing but my RCBS digital for all my loading for I guess at least 15 maybe more years. Long ago I used to check it against my Lyman D7 balance beam but long ago gave that up deciding the RCBS was actually more accurate and far far faster.

You get calibration weights with them and once you learn to use it you'll learn what your pan weights and can tell when you put it on empty if the scale has changed or is still stable. I use the tare feature and zero it out with pan on empty then read the actual weight of my powder charge on the scale instantly.

I use mine to set my RCBS powder measures and then drop all charges other than the huge logs aka stick powders. Mostly I just don't use them as they don't meter well. That's kinda why I got the Lyman DPS 1200 as it both measures and weighs each charge. That should now allow me to use more stick powders. I am a firm believer in measured not weighed charges. I use the scale merely to set the measure then meter my charges and double check them visually.

In my rifles and TCs that are up to the task it has gotten me down to the .2s and .3s with no problem doing that. Even if weighing could improve that I doubt I could shoot any better anyway.

merkelerk · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2009, 01:51:20 PM »

Broken pieces of powder will have a higher surface area to mass ratio. Measuring your charge by weight and not volume will still give the correct amount of powder but because of the greater surface area, you will definitely get differnt burn characteristics. How much this would affect accuracy would have to be determined by experimenting.
I would assume the majority of the "powder crushing" occurs during shipping and not at the reloading bench.
I have always dumped powder into a smaller, shorter container when reloading. This makes it easier to scoop out and also mixes it up a little. Even so, I have found some of my rounds are significantly more full than others (using identical brass).

MrJames680 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:05:05 PM »

merkelerk,

Quote

Broken pieces of powder will have a higher surface area to mass ratio. Measuring your charge by weight and not volume will still give the correct amount of powder but because of the greater surface area, you will definitely get differnt burn characteristics. How much this would affect accuracy would have to be determined by experimenting.
I would assume the majority of the "powder crushing" occurs during shipping and not at the reloading bench.
I have always dumped powder into a smaller, shorter container when reloading. This makes it easier to scoop out and also mixes it up a little. Even so, I have found some of my rounds are significantly more full than others (using identical brass).

have you observed any performance changes with start of container to bottom of container at all? This is the kind of variable that really interest me. Probably because I am fairly detail oriented.

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:24:19 PM »

Quote from: MrJames680 on May 06, 2009, 05:05:05 PM

merkelerk,

Quote
Broken pieces of powder will have a higher surface area to mass ratio. Measuring your charge by weight and not volume will still give the correct amount of powder but because of the greater surface area, you will definitely get differnt burn characteristics. How much this would affect accuracy would have to be determined by experimenting.
I would assume the majority of the "powder crushing" occurs during shipping and not at the reloading bench.
I have always dumped powder into a smaller, shorter container when reloading. This makes it easier to scoop out and also mixes it up a little. Even so, I have found some of my rounds are significantly more full than others (using identical brass).

have you observed any performance changes with start of container to bottom of container at all? This is the kind of variable that really interest me. Probably because I am fairly detail oriented.

Personally I have not even when working with cans holding 8 to 15 pounds.

merkelerk · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2009, 02:03:31 AM »

I can't sat that I have noticed any changes in accuracy appart from the odd flyer which I have always attributed to my poor shooting.
I doubt that my equipment and skill level is adequate to be able to discern the changes in powder from start to finish of a given container.
A good benchrest shooter with a rail gun might notice the changes.

I always worry about the one important shot... At the range, it's no big deal to have one or two flyers out of fifty rounds, but when I am out in my back yard looking to shoot a coyote with my handi rifle, there is always a chance that the round I load is that one flyer and a follow up shot with a handi rifle can be a lengthy proposition.

gypsyman · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2009, 03:23:08 AM »

Talked with several shooters that bought the cheap digital scales. Nobody had much luck with them. You never know, you might get a good one. I have a RCBS digital scale, I know that is over 20 years old. Bought them when they first came out. Chech them with a set of weights once in awhile. Don't know why, never seem to vary. I packed away my original Lyman balance beam years ago. After 10 years of double checking, figured I was wasting my time. gypsyman

Blackhawker · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2009, 03:52:44 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on May 04, 2009, 11:44:08 AM

Some of the flyers that I get from "un-named" shooting supply places have digital scales at less than $30.00. Accuracy is less than .01gr it states. Have you guys used these, and do you trust them? My balance scale got whacked off the bench, and I no longer trust it at all, can't get it to balance. This digital looks good but...............

I've got one that I'll sell to you for $10.00. I've used it once....that is to say, calibrated it and compared what I got to my beam balance, then put it away. If you want it, it's yours for ten bucks!

victorcharlie · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2009, 03:41:14 PM »

I used a balance beam for years, now all I use is an RCBS digital.

IMO the digital is more accurate, and faster to use if you're weighing cases or bullets.

The scale comes with calibration weights, and I also use a (the same) bullet to check the scale.

wncchester · « **Reply #25 on:** May 09, 2009, 03:57:19 PM »

"...digital scales at less than $30.00. Accuracy is less than .01gr..."

ANY $30 scale claiming accuracy to +/- one hundredth of a grain is full of it. None of them do better than a tenth, not even those selling for hundreds of dollars!

mechanic · « **Reply #26 on:** May 09, 2009, 04:19:13 PM »

I have a new set of balance beams coming. I will wait until I can afford a good set of digital before I buy. The last balance scale was 30+ years old, and I trusted it until I dropped it. Now it kind of "hang" occasionally, and I can't see why. Not worth risking life and limb.

Thanks for your inputs.

Ben

Land_Owner · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2009, 05:27:57 AM »

You don't want the $30.00 digital scale. Period.

You may want the $100.00+ digital though. It is lightning fast and as accurate as a balance beam for weighing cases and bullets.

If you go electric for powder measuring and trickling, a quality digital scale is a must. But, I have compared stick and ball powder measuring in manual and electric mode. I can throw almost twice as many charges with the manual balance beam than with the electric dispenser and it's associated trickler. So I use both when reloading rifle cartridges for triple production rates over the electronic scale alone.