Author Topic: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!  (Read 5404 times)

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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2009, 11:07:22 AM »
On the subjet of tubes aren't paper towel tubes the same dia just longer?
Badnews Bob
AE-2 USN retired

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2009, 11:44:18 AM »
 A quest to reinvent the buggy whip ! I see this may lend itself to friendly competition ;D .

 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2009, 09:54:32 PM »
...I may try some other fillers and/or binders as well.

 Just a thought - Spackling paste? Seems it would hold the balls together for transport, storage and loading yet would break apart well upon firing.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2009, 03:32:07 AM »
     Terry C.,    I love the South and it's people and I sure do LOVE Southern cooking.  However, a more perfect use for Grits, I just can not imagine!  Your presentation of canister can forming technique is perfect; don't change a thing.

TK
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
Box of 000 buckshot came in today, wasn't expecting it until tomorrow.

For such a small bore (1.156"), this is one big handful of hurt!




Grits is fer eatin' and shootin'!

Everyone knows grits is one of the nine major food groups (meat, bread, milk, vegetables, lard, butter, chitlins, cane syrup, and grits).

As a matter of fact we had grits for supper last night, along with some fresh shrimp from the GA coast!

Offline Double D

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2009, 02:44:28 PM »
Sporting good, trash and now food.  Some people will load just about anything in their cannon and shoot it. You need get a proper ballistic material...Cream of Wheat.  ;D

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »
I have more photos (grits content), but I'm considering splitting this off into its own thread.

First of all, I didn't start this discussion. I've pretty much hijacked Evil Dog's thread. And second, the subject is golfball-sized canister and that's not what I'm making.

It's late, I'm tired, and I still have to upload the photos.

Tomorrow I'll either continue here or in a new thread.

Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2009, 04:14:37 PM »
Hey Terry,

I don't consider the thread hijacked at all.... it is giving me plenty of ideas.  All I have to do is scale them down a bit.  Hmm... cannister rounds loaded with oats.... I wonder if that is how "Quaker Puffed Wheat" got started?  They did advertise as being "shot from guns"... of course you have to be approaching social security age to remember that one.
Evil Dog

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

Offline leesecw

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2009, 05:15:36 PM »
Im 55 and I remember that one. I wouldnt doubt it gets posted now from somebody
If Guns cause crime, then mine are defective...Ted Nugent

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2009, 12:15:37 PM »
From the Quaker Company FAQ section:

Quote
Is it true that Puffed Rice and Puffed Wheat are shot from cannons?

In 1902, Dr. Alexander P. Anderson invented a process for puffing grains referred to as "shot from guns." Recognizing the value of this innovation, Quaker entered into an agreement with Dr. Anderson to continue his experiments at Quaker's plant in Chicago. In 1904, Puffed Wheat and Puffed Rice were introduced to the public at the World's Fair in St. Louis, and in 1909, Quaker Puffed Rice and Quaker Puffed Wheat were the newest cereal products.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2009, 03:16:54 PM »
I got some news a couple of days ago that will affect this and all current projects. Due to work slowdown, we're cutting hours significantly.

That means prioritizing expenses, and projects like this one have a low priority. Luckily, the only real expense was the buckshot and that's already paid for. I should have everything I need to complete the canister I'll need.

How long this will last is anybody's guess.

I'd intended to turn the sabots for the canister today or tomorrow, but I won't be working. New safety rules prohibit me from going in after hours and working alone, so the sabots will have to wait until next week.


That said, here is where I am right now...

I cut some disks from a cardboard shotgun shell box. Two of these are glued together to form an overshot card. These were then glued inside the crimped end of the tubes.



Stacking balls inside a tube gave me a measurement, to which ¼" was added for sabot attachment, and the tubes were trimmed to length.



The necessary ingredients for a wax/grits filled canister. 27 of the 000 shot counted out, a bowl of uncooked grits, paraffin granules, a butane torch and a ladle to melt and pour the wax, and a tube slid inside the copper coupling to retain its shape during filling.



A layer of balls was added, then grits was shaken down into the crevasses, and wax was added. Then this was repeated until all of the buckshot were packed into the tube and the filler was near level with the top of the balls.

Then the entire process was repeated twice more.



A finished canister tube with wax and grits.



There are three of the wax/grits loads. The other three tubes will be filled with balls and grits, but no wax. These won't be filled until I have the sabots to cap them off.

When everything's done, I'll have three of each to shoot in the test.

There's also a seventh tube that's being held in reserve to make a display round.


Offline RocklockI

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »
Terry C.
Rotten News 

I've been there and I know others here have been too . Down here in Colo. High Tech was "IT" for @ 25 years and then ...going ,going and now within one large local high tech. company of being gone .

Your efforts look great ! Probably better than origanal .

rocklockI
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Offline dan610324

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2009, 08:25:26 AM »
sorry if Im comming with a comment , maybe its stupid .
but how about using ballistic jelly or something similar ??
or would it be to soft ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2009, 04:41:40 PM »
From Gibbon's:

Canister Shot is a tin cylinder with iron heads, filled with balls packed in with saw -dust.
The heads are movable, and the edges of the tin are turned down over them to hold them in
their places. The balls are made of such a size that seven of them can lie in a bed, one in the
middle, and six around, making the diameter of the balls about one -third that of the bore.
These balls are all made of c«t iron, except for the mountain howitzer, the canisters for
which are filled with musket -bullets, which, as has been shown, meet with less resistance
from the air, and retain their velocity longer than cast-iron balls of a much larger size. It
would be better to make them of wrought iron for field-guns, as is done in France; as,
besides being more dense, they would be less likely to break and injure the bore of the gun
than cast-iron ones. For dimensions, see Appendix, p. 444.)

When canister is fired, the balls, having broken the case, escape in the form of a cone, and
striking against each other, and against the sides of the piece, diverge more or less according
to the distance; but the greater part of the balls are found to be near the centre, and the rules
of fire are still based upon. the knowledge of the mean trajectory.

Canister for the Mountain howitzer:

Canister shot may be replaced by filling pasteboard cylinders,
having heads of elm, 1 ½ inch thick -, with musket-bullets placed in beds, and sealed with
good plaster; the weight of the whole not to exceed that of the shot, and to be fired with the
charge of one-fifth of that weight, and not at a greater range than 300 or 400 yards.


Other stuff

Grape and Canister shot leave the piece diverging from each other, in the form of a cone,
the greater part of the balls being in the centre, and the extreme ones separating about
one-tenth of the range. When fired at too short a distance, the balls occupy too small a space
to produce the proper effect; and at too great a distance they diverge too much, and strike on
too extended a surface. Good results can be obtained at from 300 to 600 yards, but the
maximum effect is produced at from 300 to 450 yards. When firing at very short distances
over hard, dry ground, a suitable dispersion of the balls may be produced by firing very low,
and allowing the balls to ricochet.
The range and effect of grape -shot become greater, at ordinary distances, as the size of the
balls is increased. For this reason, the grape from 12 -pdr. guns and 32 -pdr. howitzers, is
more effective than that from 6 -pdr. guns and 12 or 24 -pdr. howitzers, and the 6 -pdr. grape
is no longer used in the United States.*
If the balls ricochet over -hard, dry ground, grape -shot may be effective up to 800 yards, and
the pointing is of but little importance; but with broken or soft ground, ricocheting cannot be
depended on, and the angle of elevation should be regulated with care.

Canister Shot , Fig. 238.-- To form the cylinder for canister shot, the tin is lapped about .5
inches and soldered. It is then fastened to the sabot with six or eight nails, and a plate of
rolled iron is placed at the bottom on the sabot.
The exterior diameter of each canister must be verified with the maximum shot gauge, and
the interior with a cylinder of a diameter 0.02 in. less than that given in the table (see
Appendix, p. 451,) which should enter the canister.
Before filling, dip the cylinder in a lacker of beeswax, dissolved in spirits of turpentine, to
prevent it from rusting. Give the balls and plates a, coat of paint or coal -tar. To fill the
canister, place it upright on its sabot; put in a tier of balls, filling the interstices with dry,
sifted sawdust, packing it with a pointed stick, so that the balls will hold by themselves
when the case is turned over; and throw out the loose sawdust. Place another her of balls and
proceed in the same way until the canister is filled; cover the top her with a layer of sawdust
and put on the cover, which is a circular plate of sheet iron, settling it well with a mallet in
order to compress the sawdust. The top of the cylinder is cut into slits about 5 in. long,
which are turned down over the cover, thus securing it. After it is finished, the diameter of
the canister should be verified with the maximum gauge of its calibre.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2009, 08:32:08 PM »
 Terry - It's a good thing you didn't go with the toilet paper rolls after all. You need a Mountain Howitzer for those!

Canister for the Mountain howitzer:

Canister shot may be replaced by filling pasteboard cylinders...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2009, 03:38:57 AM »
Gibbon's "Artlllerist's Manual" is a wonderful resource. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2009, 04:13:15 AM »
The more I look at the wax/grits loads, the more I think that I may have created slugs that are going to hit the target as one single mass! Only firing will tell.

I don't want to have to ricochet them off the pavement just to get them to break up.

Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2009, 05:20:39 AM »
Yes, I've been wondering about that.  When I finally get the time to make up some myself I think I am going to stick with a sawdust only filler (have plenty of that laying around).  I am amazed at just how much LESS time I seem to have available since becoming fully retired... there just aren't enough hours in the day.
Evil Dog

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2009, 03:46:46 PM »
Sabots.

Turned from a poplar dowel.

I had planned to make these yesterday, I'd made arrangements to go up to the shop while the boss was there working on his aquarium. Had the piece of dowel in the saddlebag and the ignition key in the bike. Just before I drove off, my wife came home and informed me "I need to go to the emergency room, NOW!"

She'd got something on her arm that cause a severe allergic reaction. We still don't know exactly what. She'd been treating it with ointments for a couple of days but it just kept getting worse. Then came pain and fever.

Finally, she almost passed out behind the wheel on the way home from my mother's house yesterday. It was time to go to the ER.

She had shooting pain and higher than normal temp, but what really got them on the ball was dangerously high blood pressure. They put her in a room and gave her pain and BP meds, and wouldn't release her until her BP dropped to a safe level.

Even with the fastracked service, we spent most of the day at the ER waiting for her BP and temp to stabilize. I'm just glad she got home before I left.

So, how was YOUR Sunday?


Anyway, I stayed after work today and made enough of these for the cans I have formed, plus a couple of spares.




Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2009, 04:04:09 PM »
I hope all is well with your wife.  The sabot and assembled round look great.  Looking forward to hearing about firing them.  You may have pick up in a previous post that at close range the center of the pattern is the same place as a solid round would go if aimed the same way.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2009, 04:31:36 PM »
I just recently retired after having worked the past 30 years in hospitals (operating room).  I could never figure out why ER visits seemed to take so long... 4 hours or more average.  Glad to hear that your wife is back home and hopefully feeling a LOT better.

Those sabots look real good... going to have to make up a few for my toilet paper tubes.  Oh, noticed yesterday that the tube from a roll of paper towels also appears to be the same diameter.  That is a good thing as we seem to go through paper towels around my house even faster than toilet paper.
Evil Dog

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2009, 10:51:59 AM »
Thanks from the wife for the well-wishes. She's back to her ornery self!

And now she has pain meds, so my threats of a whoopin' don't scare her none.

 :) :D ;D

A little black paint, and the canisters look more like real ammunition...



Would'a rather used flat black instead of gloss, but gloss is what I had and the cutbacks in work hours mean fewer trips out for supplies.

I glued the sabots to the cans, instead of nailing.

I wanted to nail them like the full-sized canister, but when I went looking for tiny little brass nails, all I could find were brass-plated steel. Steel I got plenty of, but I'm a'feared they'll score the bore. A little super glue will do the job.

If the weather is good next Friday (and we're still working short weeks), maybe they'll get fired. I have a shooting area tentatively lined up, with 25 yards to shoot and a big dirt backstop. I'm planning to take three with wax and three without, and alternate fire until I run out of canister or get shut down by the PoPo.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2009, 12:09:10 PM »
A little super glue will do the job.

Since that stuff is kind of brittle, the container should break up upon firing even with the wax.
GG
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2009, 07:09:13 AM »
Here is the canister with a powder packet. A solid shot is shown for comparison.



If you're wondering why there are two in the photo and not three, I gave one of them a sort of preliminary test.  ::)

When I was gluing in the sabots, one of the unfinished cans rolled off the table and hit the floor. It bent the open mouth of the can where the sabot would have went, and dislodged the load. I could hear something shaking inside.

I managed to reform the mouth of the can good enough to get the shot/wax/grits slug out. What I found was that there were some grits on the bottom tier that didn't get saturated (I suspect that this was the first one I made). This let some of the balls shake loose when the slug moved, that's what was rattling.

The wax must not have been hot enough to soak down through that layer of grits. What I think happened was that I was worried that the wax would leak out the bottom and didn't heat it enough.



Anyway, I gave the remaining mass a good swat with the heel of my hand and it crumbled, scattering balls everywhere. I thought I had found them all but when I did the count after the photo, a couple were missing. I found them on the floor (good thing I found them). So it's possible that it will break up in flight.

OTOH, the superglued seam of the can held fast even though the can landed on the seamed side. The can may NOT break open.



Only firing will tell for sure. I need to rebuild the damaged canister, assemble the unwaxed ones, finish painting, and label them sometime before Friday.

Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2009, 07:39:37 PM »
I've finally got the time to give this a try!!!  Next week is a local blackpowder rondezvous event (pre-1840's fur trade) that I always try to go to.  Now that I am fully retired blocking out vacation time or the like is no longer a concern.  Will take the cannon with me as Sat noonish is reserved for a "demo".  Have a few things to try to see which works best.  20 solid shot rounds made up, 10 of them with a 3/4" thick sabot and the other 10 with a 1 1/2" thick sabot.  So far I really haven't noticed much difference between the two, either seeming to hit about in the same place.  That has been with some very limited testing though (only 2 rounds fired of the 3/4" sabot) with nothing beyond 100 yards.

Also made up 3 cannister rounds.  For a while I thought a paper towel tube would work but it turned out to be just slightly larger in diameter than a toilet paper tube (or atleast the one I tried did).  .535" balls make a nice layer of 7 within the toilet paper tube and 34 of them work out to be just over 1 pound in 5 layers with the center ball missing from the top layer.   A toilet paper tube cut to 3" long seems just about right.  Made up a base plug of 3/4" pine with a stepped down section to fit the toilet paper tube.... the tube being glued to the base plug with silicone sealer.  After the balls were placed inside a simple pasteboard plug was put in the nose end.  The tubes have 4 cuts in them extending 2" from the nose end and then a piece of masking tape was wrapped near the nose end to keep it intact for handling.  The pasteboard plug fits about 1/4" below the nose.  The idea being (hopefully) this thing will act like a giant shot cup and completely separate a few yards out from the muzzle when fired.  Will find out on the 14th.

Fortunately I have a 4 cavity .535" mold so sending 34 of them down range at a time won't mandate a marathon casting session like it would with my old single cavity mold.

Hopefully pics to come depending on how things go.
Evil Dog

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2009, 02:19:45 PM »
So do either of our intrepid experimenters have anything to report on the firing tests?   ;D
GG
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