Rostaing Cannon

[cannonmn]

I put the links here an not active photos since I didn't want to put extra bandwidth use on the European server they are on.  Sometimes wervers that see active links like that will cut the link to save bandwidth.  The Rostaing gun was supposed to have had a 53mm bore, fired shot weighing 1.08 lbs, tube nominal length 44 inches, bore length 42 inches or about 20.5 calibers, tube weight 114 Kg.  These date from late 18th C.

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/EMUMQ8/06-517953.jpg

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/XNHBJ0/06-517954.jpg

[RocklockI]

what country is that from ?

it looks like another version of a galloper type thing .

[cannonmn]

I'll guess French.

Notice the crook ramrod?  That's what everyone should use.

We use one as much as possible.  I like to make them out of
light metal tubing so it can slip through the hands and not
catch like a splinter-prone one would do.  There's never anyone
downrange so we don't have to worry about what it
would do as a projectile.

[cannonmn]

Here's some material compiled by Steven Smith regarding Rostaing cannons:

Canons à la Rostaing:

http://books.google.com/books?id=704bAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA245

“Canons à la Rostaing (XLVII, 56). — L'inventeur des « pièces à la Rostaing » était, non le marquis de Rostaing de Gâlinais, mais un officier général d'artillerie distingué, d'une autre famille, Philippe- Joseph, comte de Rostaing, né en 1716, fils du marquis de Rostaing, officier d'artillerie très habile. Philippe-Joseph fut élève d'artillerie à Metz en 1732, capitaine au Corps Royal d'artillerie, 1744, lieutenant-colonel, 1759, colonel, 1765, brigadier, 1769, maréchal de camp, 1er mars 1780. Inventeur, des pièces à la Rostaing, « système d'artillerie de montagne, qui conserve son nom dans les Tables de construction de Gribeauval et dans les meilleurs ouvrages sur l'artillerie » (Michaud, vol. 80). Inspecteur-général d'artillerie depuis 1779, il devint, le 20 mai 1791, un des quatre lieutenants-généraux employés dans cette arme. Il remplissait encore ses fonctions d'inspecteur général en 1793 et était en tournée d'inspection àAuxonne, quand il fut arrêté par ordre du conventionnel Bernard, de Saintes, pour être traduit au tribunal révolutionnaire de Paris, comme suspect de royalisme. Tombé maladeen route, il fut déposé dans une prison où il mourut peu de jours après, à l'âge de 78 ans.
L'article Calibre, dans Larousse, nous apprend que dans le système de Gribeauval, introduit dans l'artillerie en 1765, on appelait « canon à la Rostaing », un canon lançant un projectile d'une livre, pièce par conséquent très légère.
S. Churchill.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=JfIHAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA594

“... d'attacher à chaque bataillon d'infanterie une pièce de canon dite à la Rostaing, plus légère que la pièce de 4 ordinaire, attelée de trois chevaux et servie par des canonniers commandés par un simple sergent (1).
...
(1) Ordonnances du 20 janvier et du 26 février 1757.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=bPgcAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA365

“... Gribeauval conserva les calibres du système Vallière. Il introduisit cependant un canon d'une livre, nommé à la Rostaing. ....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=YQNoAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA31

7177. _ AU GÉNÉRAL BERTHIER.
Saint-Cloud, 15 vendémiaire an XII (8 octobre 1803).
Dans l'état des bouches à feu, Citoyen Ministre, disponibles dans les directions d'artillerie, que vous m'avez remis au 1" fructidor, il n'est pas question des pièces de 3 de montagne, autrichiennes ou piémontaises, que nous pourrions avoir. Il n'est pas question non plus de pièces à la Rostaing. Je désirerais connaître l'état de toutes ces pièces que nous pourrions avoir dans nos arsenaux, Nous en avons beaucoup pris aux Autrichiens. J'aurais besoin de quatre cents de ces pièces de 3 autrichiennes ou de montagne, et de trois cents pièces à la Rostaing, si toutefois ce nombre en existe. Je vous prie de m'en faire passer l'état.
....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=59WgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA20

“... six pièces de deux livres à la Rostaing ... vingt-deux pièces de deux livres à la Rostaing ....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=XjMWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA417

“...; il y eut aussi un canon d'une livre, dit à la Rostaing; ....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=PV0JAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA64

“... Les pièces de 3 à la Rostaing, qu'on adopta en 1757, furent déclarées préférables aux précédentes parce qu'elles pouvaient tirer11 coups au lieu de 8. ....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=V96gAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA521

“Les pièces irréguliéres les plus connues sont: les canons dits à la Rostaing, d'une livre de balle; les espingards ou pierriers des vaisseaux de 3 livres, et qui se chargent par la culasse ; les amusettes inventées par M. le maréchal de Saxe, qui portent une balle de plomb de 24 onces à 1500 toises.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=zTVxAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA148

“... Le 10 mai 1793 il fit don au district de Toulouse de deux pièces de canon de bronze, de quatre livres de balles, dites à la Rostaing & montées sur affût, que le roi Louis XIV avait données à son aïeul en récompense de ses services lors des guerres de Catalogne. ....”

http://books.google.com/books?id=og0WAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA26

“... On affecta, à chaque bataillon, deux pièces de canon à la Rostaing, servies par 8 fusiliers, jouissant d'un sol de haute-paie ( 1).
...
(1) Ordonnance du roi, du 1er mai 1775.“

http://books.google.com/books?id=WHyiyaelJW0C&pg=PA265

“Canons à tir rapide.
« Les petits canons à la Rostaing du calibre d'une livre, tirant 14 coups par minute et portés facilement par huit hommes, furent également inventés à la même époque et donnés à l'infanterie; leur utilité en fut démontrée pour effectuer une descente. J'ai été chargé de l'instruction des canonniers (pris dans les bataillons) pour se servir des dites pièces. »”

http://books.google.com/books?id=vSBNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA63

“ARTILLERIE Paris, le 14 juin 1815.
Général, J'ai l'honneur de vous prévenir,en réponse à votre lettre du 10 de ce mois, qu'il n'existe plus dans les arsenaux de France aucune pièce à la Rostaing, et qu'ainsi, celles que que vous demandiez pour la défense des Vosges ne peuvent vous être envoyées.

[KABAR2]

I imagine that this was a lively little gun....... the short stubby trail and light weight must have let that thing hop about a bit.

I do like the elevation system on this carriage 

[Cannoneer]

This is part of an article written by Matt Switlik that first appeared in the Artilleryman Magazine in 2001, "US Field Gun Carriages - Their History and Evolution," and as the title implies, his primary concern in this excerpt is with the Rostaing carriage of the early 1800's.



From its title, Louis Tousard’s American Artillerists Companion (1809) is generally assumed to demonstrate that America adopted the French Gribeauval system. The latter was introduced in the 1770’s and used effectively by Napoleon after the 1790’s. The conventional wisdom maintains that we did not get the “new style”gun carriages from our French Allies during the Revolutionary War and that we may have seen them in the hands of French troops at Yorktown but would not necessarily have noticed their advantages at the time.

Tousard’s work was published in 1809 and it is possible the US may have acquired some Gribeauval field gun carriages during the change of ownership at New Orleans in 1803. In spite of this some writers have felt that the drawings published by Tousard represent more of what he thought Americans should be using, rather than what was in use. Suggestions were made by Wade and Birkhimer that America adopted the Gribeauval system on a piecemeal basis. Their thoughts are supported in part by the fact that Tousard published drawings of “American” gun tubes but almost no surviving examples of gun tubes match his drawings. The surviving Gribeauval style gun carriages, although dated quite late, show a mixture of basic features, but are quite different from Tousard’s drawings.

Tousard had a major interest in mountain artillery. He was very familiar with terrain and roads in American and recommended that Americans use a unique form of mountain carriage which had a lot of the functional characteristics of our later 1840’s pack carriage. It dismantled easily, even with a quick detachable axle, for pack transportation but it also had a set of detachable thills for draft by a single animal. This system was known as the Rostaing carriage and was part of the 18th century French artillery. It was adopted by Spain in the 1790’s and by other Europeans.

Even before Tousard published his recommendation in 1809, the Rostaing carriage had been illustrated in the U.S. translation of DeScheel’s A Treatise of Artillery ; Containing a New System in 1800. Again, I have no proof that such carriages were ever used in the United States, but there is a striking visual similarity to frequently used printers’ woodcuts of a “split trail” field gun carriage; such images appear in use long before, during and even after the Civil War. Whether the image of a Rostaing type carriage in American folk art indicates the style was known here or whether the image was the product of immigrant artists, is open to debate.

We know the concept of a central stock carriage or stock-rail carriage originated with the British in the 1780’s but spread quite slowly in their service. A few examples of this carriage were captured by the US during the War of 1812, and certain officers quickly realized their advantages.



 Tousard talks about the Rostaing carriage for mountain use and shows a partial drawing of the carriage, as did DeScheel. The print above is from the more complete illustration at the Musee’ d Armee, Paris. So far we don’t have proof these were used in America. The gun illustrated here was a 2.5 Pdr bronze but DeScheel talks about its use with a one pounder. 

As early as 1818 variations of it were built under the direction of Col. Decius Wadsworth. Wade mentions having seen them and that they were actually made with two full-length separate cheeks, bent inward until they almost met at the lunette hole. They must have been a lot like late 19th-century wrought iron carriages in configuration. The 1818 trial carriages were considered too radical and rejected by authorities in favor of continuing the Gribeauval system.

[MikeR C]

cannonmn,
from the look of the link these are lowres pics, are there hires pics? I kinda poked around but couldn't find where the pics were...

[cannonmn]

When I first open the link, I get a kind of crummy image.  Then I click on it and get a larger, very clean image, so maybe the "lowres" text means that's what it initially opens up to.  Try clicking on it.

Here's some add'l info from Steven Smith.  I've never seen anyone exploit Google books as he's able to do.  I think he pulled up all the above excerpts on Rostaing in a half-hour or so, and pre-web days, that would have taken a PhD level historian about 6 months to do, including a lot of travel expense to different major libraries around the world, if somehow he knew the right books to look in, which is unlikely.

The following is a book that's not available for download anywhere, but it is apparently the implementing regulation for Rostaing guns:

Ordonnance du roi, portant établissement de deux pièces de canon à la
Rostaing, à la suite de chacun des régimens créés pour la garde des isles de
France & de Bourbon. Du 30 Décembre 1772. Imprimerie du Département de la Marine, 1773.

[cannonmn]

Thanks Boom, interesting stuff.

Here's a rough machine translation of the French text above:

Rostaing the guns:

http://books.google.com/books?id=704bAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA245

"The guns Rostaing (XLVII, 56). - The inventor of "the parts Rostaing" was not the Marquis de Rostaing Galina, but an artillery officer distinguished from another family, Philippe-Joseph, comte de Rostaing, born 1716, son of Marquis de Rostaing, artillery officer very clever. Philippe-Joseph was a student of artillery at Metz in 1732, Captain in Royal Artillery Corps, 1744 Lieutenant Colonel 1759 Colonel 1765, Brigadier, 1769, Marshal of the camp, 1st March 1780. Inventor of the exhibits Rostaing, "system of mountain artillery, which retains its name in the construction of tables Gribeauval and the best books on the artillery" (Michaud, vol. 80). Inspector-General of Artillery since 1779, he became, on 20 May 1791, one of the four lieutenant-generals used in this weapon. He still fulfilled his duties as inspector general in 1793 and was on tour of inspection àAuxonne, when he was arrested by order of the conventional Bernard de Saintes, to be translated to the Revolutionary Court in Paris, as suspected royalist. Fell maladeen road, he was placed in a prison where he died a few days later, at the age of 78 years.
Article Caliber in Oxford, we learn that in the system Gribeauval, brought in the artillery in 1765, was called "cannon Rostaing the" gun launching a projectile from a book, piece by very lightly.
S. Churchill. "

http://books.google.com/books?id=JfIHAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA594

"... attached to each infantry battalion a piece of the canon known Rostaing, lighter than the regular 4 piece, combined with three horses and served by gunners commanded by a mere sergeant (1).
...
(1) Orders of 20 January and 26 February 1757. "

http://books.google.com/books?id=bPgcAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA365

"... Gribeauval conservation sizes Vallière system. He submitted, however, a barrel of a book, called the Rostaing. ...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=YQNoAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA31

7177. _ BERTHIER IN GENERAL.
Saint-Cloud, 15 vendémiaire an XII (October 8, 1803).
In the state of guns, Citizen Minister, available in the directions of artillery, which you submitted to 1 fructidor, there is no question in 3 parts mountain, Austrian and Piedmontese, which we might have. There is no question either of the exhibits Rostaing. I would like to know the status of all those documents that we may have in our arsenals, we have taken to many Austrians. I need four cents these parts 3 or Austrian mountain, and three hundred pieces to Rostaing, if these exist. Please let me get the condition.
...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=59WgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA20

"... six parts of two books on the Rostaing ... twenty-two pieces of the two books Rostaing ...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=XjMWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA417

"...; There was also a canon of a book, told the Rostaing; ...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=PV0JAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA64

"... 3 parts to the Rostaing, which passed in 1757, were better than reported earlier because they could tirer11 shots instead of 8. ...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=V96gAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA521

"The irregular pieces the best known are: the guns themselves Rostaing, one-pound ball, and boulders or espingards vessels 3 pounds, and who are responsible for the breech and the Amusette invented by Mr. Marshal Saxony, which carry a ball of lead of 24 ounces to 1500 toises. "

http://books.google.com/books?id=zTVxAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA148

"... On 10 May 1793 it was donated to the district of Toulouse for two pieces of bronze cannon, four pounds of bullets, tell the Rostaing & mounted on alert, that King Louis XIV had given to his grandfather as a reward for his services during wars of Catalonia. ...."

http://books.google.com/books?id=og0WAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA26

"... On assignment, to each battalion, two pieces of cannon to Rostaing, served by 8 rifle, with a high ground-pay (1).
...
(1) Order of the King, 1 May 1775. "

http://books.google.com/books?id=WHyiyaelJW0C&pg=PA265

"Rapid fire guns.
"Small guns Rostaing the size of a book, firing 14 rounds per minute and easily carried by eight men, were also invented at that time and given to the infantry, their usefulness was demonstrated to make a descent. I was responsible for the investigation of gunners (taken in battalions) to be used therefor. "

http://books.google.com/books?id=vSBNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA63

"ARTILLERY Paris, 14 June 1815.
General, I have the honor to notify you, in response to your letter of 10 this month, it no longer exists in the arsenals of France no part in Rostaing, and thus, those that you ask for the defense of the Vosges you can not be sent.
...."

[Cannoneer]

You're not just whistling Dixie when you say that Steven H. Smith can post some book URL's in quick order; I wonder if he is fluent in French and Spanish?

You know, when I first read the M.Switlik article on his website some years ago, the Rostaing carriage interested me right off the bat, but I'll admit that I really didn't give much if any thought to the cannon that was mounted on it. Now that you're discussing it, and realizing that these guns were the forerunners of the mountain guns that came after, which we're more familiar with, I think they are very interesting. Would it be reasonable to hypothesize that some of these French (sans carriage) barrels may have been misidentified as swivel guns over the years?

[cannonmn]

I guess that's possible about the confusion, however on the swivel gun side, there's been a good deal of info available on at least the principle French naval swivel guns, such as the well-known M1786.  It may have been that some models France had during 18th C. were used as both land and sea pieces, which would certainly add to the confusion.

Speaking of mountain guns, Steven H. Smith found this and posted a link to it yesterday:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G6k6AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I put the link to a page of interest into "Google translate" and it came up with a reasonable translation.