Firing a .45 cal. bullets w/o sabots in a .45 cal. barrel

[kody]

  I ran across an article about using .45 cal. bullets in .45 cal.  M/Ls,  without sabots. The bullets were  retained in the barrel by swadging them out of round before loading, enough to require some positive force to load them, and were forced into the rifling by the power of the firing charge. This supposedly eliminated any negative effects on accuracy caused by sabots. I haven't seen this method mentioned in this forum and am curious whether any members have tried it and what resulted? What should the diameters involved be?         Ken

[PHATINJUN]

Are you talking about jacketed bullets? I don't use sabots in any of my Huntsmans my .45 shoots No Excuses .451 385gr just as well as my 45 colt . Kurt

[rkeltner]

you would be wise to slug your barrel first. i've been told that the huntsman 45s have a tight bore. i for my own part use pure lead handgun bullets in my 45 cal m.l.s. most true 45s will lightly engrave a .451-.452 lead slug, with good results at the range. i have a 45 cal cva kentucky rifle with a 1-66 twist that shoots 255 gr. flat nose slugs from a lee mold way better that it has any right to!

[petemi]

I shoot PRBs or cast lead bullets in all my muzzleloaders.  I've had no luck with, and therefore no use for sabots.  The question that always comes to my mind is "Why reduce a .50 cal. to .45 and so on down the line?"  I like what a big cast bullet does and how it flies.  I use mostly PRBs in my sidehammers, cast bullets in the in-lines.  Also, I have no plastic fouling.

The concept of putting an out of round bullet down a barrel doesn't make any sense to me.  It would seem you'd loose a lot of energy in blow by.  The charge will follow the course of least resistance around the bullet.  Just my thoughts.

Pete

[kody]

   The article was written by Toby Bridges at www.hpmuzzeloading.com/ and refers to jacketed .451/.452 bullets. Read his piece, it's easier to steer you to that than to accurately repeat it. There are a number of articles that touch on M/L problems that have been discussed here in this forum.    Ken

[tn_junk]

I had a .45 cal Inline with a 1-20" barrel. I played around with paper patching .452 pistol bullets and was getting some fairly good results before I got rid of the gun. I was using cast bullets, but expect the same could be done with jacketed.

alan

[Hammerspur]

I have heard of knurling cast and maybe jacketed .45 bullets for a tight fit in a .45 bore. It provides enough resistance on ignition to promote better obturation or 'upset' into the rifling.
They do it by rolling the projectiles across the face of a (coarse?) file, with some force I would think.

Check here for more:
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9266&highlight=file+knurled+bullets

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php

[Bigeasy]

Kody -

The link to the web site posted does not seem to work.  No matter.  It is foolish to even think about using jacketed (non-sabot) bullets in a muzzle loading rifle.  Common sense would tell me that a bullet "out of round so it provides some resistance" would be wildly inaccurate.  Most muzzle loader barrels are of unhardened steel, and can not handle much more pressure then they are designed for.

The only way to safely shoot a jacked bullet in a muzzle loading rifle is with a properly designed sabot.  The relatively soft plastic provides little resistance in the barrel, as well as an effective gas seal.  The same with a properly sized pure lead slug.  I have heard of people casting soft lead bullets, then heat treating the head (non bearing part) for increased penetration, or even adding a copper cap to protect the lead tip, but this is not the same thing.   

[Hammerspur]

I checked around at 'Modern Muzzleloading' some... seems this file knurling of bore size sabotless bullets is done by some on all copper Barnes X Bullets, TMZ's, etc.
BUT those doing so are guys using custom re-barreled muzzleloading guns with centerfire steel barrels installed.

Here's one quote from the site:
"You can go up in size a little by knurling the bullet (rolling it between two files), the coarser the files the larger the diameter.
One of the guys resizes 290 TMZ's for his .45."

Others do this up-sizing method in standard muzzleloading barrels using all lead bullets to achieve a tight fit in the bore.

You can get to the site here: http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php

To view most of the stuff though you need to register.
If you're into high performance muzzleloading stuff MM is the place to find info on it.
Many members here can be found there as well.

[mcgiiver]

you would be wise to slug your barrel first. i've been told that the huntsman 45s have a tight bore. i for my own part use pure lead handgun bullets in my 45 cal m.l.s. most true 45s will lightly engrave a .451-.452 lead slug, with good results at the range. i have a 45 cal cva kentucky rifle with a 1-66 twist that shoots 255 gr. flat nose slugs from a lee mold way better that it has any right to!

Exactly what Le mold do you use? Is that the modern Minie Mold?

[kody]

  I mis-spelled the address.   It's www.hpmuzzleloader.com/.  I think that article will answer most of your questions.   Ken

[Hammerspur]

Kody,

Here it is: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/FuturisticML.html

Toby's working with modern high quality arms, not some old pig iron relic.

[kody]

 Hammerspur; Which category do you put the NEF/HR muzzleloaders in?   Ken

[Hammerspur]

Hammerspur; Which category do you put the NEF/HR muzzleloaders in?   Ken

Depends which ones you're speaking of. I'd say the new ones are pretty much as good, material-wise as most of todays stuff, probably better than some from reports I've seen.
The old stuff from the original H&R Co. are probably best treated with caution when it comes to any hot-dog tricks.

My .45 H&R muzzleloader is a Hubbard's conversion from a .45-70 Shikari (circa 1980) so I'm less concerned about experimenting than I would be if I were using a .45 Huntsman from the same era.

[rkeltner]

you would be wise to slug your barrel first. i've been told that the huntsman 45s have a tight bore. i for my own part use pure lead handgun bullets in my 45 cal m.l.s. most true 45s will lightly engrave a .451-.452 lead slug, with good results at the range. i have a 45 cal cva kentucky rifle with a 1-66 twist that shoots 255 gr. flat nose slugs from a lee mold way better that it has any right to!

Exactly what Le mold do you use? Is that the modern Minie Mold?

i'm sorry i didn't get back withn you when your question was asked, but in answer, the mold is the 255 rf .451 mold for the 45 colt. cast in pure lead, they make excellent m.l. bullets and they will stablize in a slower twist thann you would expect!!