Handi SB1 action in 30-30 reload pressures

[Barrabruce]

O.k. I have a 30-30 in a pardner SB1 acton 2001 model.
How hot can I load this too??

Specs form powder companies data seem around 30-38K psi.

I keep reading about boosting up the 'ol thuddy thuddy with light projectiles for vermin etc.

I presume in  SB2 actions/Contenders etc  would/should  take max loads of say 50-55k PSI tops



What is/ would/should  be safe in the humble SB1.

I can find threads that mention hotter calibres not safe to use with this action but not what sort of pressures can be run up in these.

Will it handle the loads  and pressures of the newer winchesters and marlins?

Where should one be looking at??

Don't want to stretch the action nor blow primers.
Ruin myself or my gun.


Thanks
Barrra

[LaOtto222]

Of course, Remington/H&R does not want you using a 30-30 barrel on your SB1 frame at all. I would think that if you do not load above standard pressures, it would hold up OK. In a different era, they fitted 30-30 barrels to a weaker type frame. I would not even think about trying pressures above SAAMI limits. Then there have been reports of primer issues when using a shotgun frame with rifle primers - piercings, primer flow backs and such. Since you have already fitted the barrel to the frame, you can try it to see what you get, but I would not exceed the pressure limits of the cartridge, in fact I would probably not go above the middle of the reloading data for the 30-30. But that is me, I do have a 30-30, factory fitted to a SB2 frame, and I will not exceed the data limits for it. For one thing, the case itself is not all that strong, after all it was not designed for high pressures. If I want to get more horsepower, I will get a different case to use such as a 308, or 30-06. Good Luck to you and be safe.

[Barrabruce]

  Now I'm worried..
Don't need more horse power!!!
Just wondering!!!!

This is me gun.
Sorry for the pics but I anit that good.
No numbers can be found on either barrell.
The 30-30 barrell has a
Model 157
cal 30-30 Win
On the lug it has the letter P stamped in it.

The 410 barrell
Pardner Model
410 cal 3 " full With a P in a circle

Hope this is all honky dory and not a made do one....

Loads Iv'e developed to try on Sunday are
ADI  AR 2207 powder Win mag primer (all they had)
 New REM case  Hornady 150 grn inerlocks
Loads 21.6 - 22.5 gns
Seated 5 thou off the lands.
Load data is for 150's AdI AR 2207 is 21.6 grns @1924 to 24.0 grns @ 2110 fps

Now you got me worried.
Give it a burl on Sunday and see how we cope (me and the gun that is)
Already for the big test.
Floated barrell , checked everything out. been cleaned 6 times and the barrell sparkles!!!
Haven't polished chamber yet..see how she goes.
Stocked piled o-rings. cleaners. and even some honing paste for barrell and crown  if needed.

 
Barra

[quickdtoo]

Use of a 30-30 barrel on an SB1 frame at SAAMI pressures is risky since H&R won't fit them, going above SAAMI pressures is foolish even if it was on an SB2 frame, the brass isn't meant for higher pressures.

Tim

[myarmor]

I wouldn't say I condone it, but as was stated the old models weren't as strong as the new SB-1's, but then again I would just say approach with caution as you work up loads.
Just me 2cents



-Aaron

[Barrabruce]

Thanks
Mild loads 'll do
Factory ammo be safe in it then??
Or should I be very cautious with it?

IS this a production/factory job
Or do you think  some one has cobbled it together.

Hmmmm if it has been I may have to have a go at the Armorist that sold it too me as a combo

Barra

[dieselten]

I would not shoot factory in that set up.  Factory is usually very close to saami max.

[Datil]

 My son has a old shotgun frame, with a old 30-30 barrel, early 70's job
 He shoots 150 grain bullets Up to about 30 grains of IMR-3031 powder.
 Been doing it for years. Killed his first deer with it. DATIL

[quickdtoo]

Factory Remington 150gr does 2330fps in my 30-30 Handi, AR2207 is the powder Hodgdon sells as H4198, your load is the start load for both Hodgdon and ADI's data, Hodgdon says that load is 26.9kcup, 24gr max is 36.8kcup.

The model 157 was factory available in 30-30, but not on an SB1 frame, the 157 was made well before the original H&R went belly up in 1986, the SB1 wasn't made until H&R1871 started making them in 1987, they're two different companies and why H&R1871 will not fit barrels to frames made before 1987.

Tim

http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/warning.asp

[44 Man]

The 30-30 and the bullets loaded in them are designed for the velocities they generate.  No one ever complained because a properly placed factory bullet failed to do it's job.  Don't need no more.  44 Man

[gendoc]

i have a 1984 model 258 handy gun II
i've been told by a h&r historian that they offerd this gun in a combo
20ga/357mag or max, 20ga/30-30, 20ga/44mag and other scatter gun combo's with rimfire barrels.
notice the name....handy.... not handi.... its before the turnaround.
cast iron-nickle plated.  as kurt wud say.... swwwwweeeeeeeeetttttttttttt!!!!!!!!

[billy_56081]

Have you fired this gun? Do factory loads flow the primer back into the firing pin hole? I would imagine they do. The SB1 shotgun frames have a larger diamiter firing pin hole. I have a hornet barrel so fitted and with the higher pressure H110 loads would flow a WSR primer into the firing pin so bad it was hard to open the action. With Lil Gun and WSR primers it was better and with rem 7 1/2 it is non existent.

[Barrabruce]

Thanks for the input...

No I haven't fired this gun yet!!!!

Sunday is the big day!!

May start with a lower starting load and work up.

I rang the shop who sold it to me.

His story seems to change.

Said it 'll  shoot factory stuff no worries as so 'n so had it for years!!!

We'll see.

If I have any toubles I take it to a gunsmith and get him to access it.
If'n it aint safe.
crap shall hit the preverbial

I really have only bought this for a cast gun but with the option of Jacketed stuff if I need it in situations.

Barra

[PHATINJUN]

There are probly thousands of guns out there just like your set up that folks over the yrs have found out over the yrs boy this bbl fits this frame and so on not knowing what they were doing could be dangerous to them and the gun. Bad part is when they start getting sold if you ain't from this neck of the woods (GBO) most don't know what they are looking at or for when buying used and a lot of Gun shop sellers don't know either. Your 30-30 bbl came off a 157 one way to know for sure is the mannlicher will not fit a modern (after 87)bbl and certainly won't fit a NEF era bbl as the bbl lug is in a differant position. The frame you have it on now will handle normal 30-30 pressure but the firing pin could be your problem and as others have said that can some what be fixed with the primers you use if you hand load for it. But your right about being a little pevved as I hate the old statements "Oh you'll be alright so and so shot it for yrs like that" yes...but maybe so and so shot all the lucky out of it also!!!  Your right Marv but that boy ain't right all the time hope your stayin in the shade out there. Kurt

[carbineman]

If you use 130 grain pointed Hornady bullets and use the data which is published in the Hodgdon #26 manual for 125-130 grain bullets, the pressures are way down on the chart for these loadings. The #26 manual is available from many of these 2nd hand bookselling dealers on the internet. I just bought another copy for 10 dollars shipped to me.

I use this data in my older topper barrels and have no high pressure signs whatsoever. Winchester 748 seems to work very well in these applications for me along with Remington cases, Remington 9 1/2 magnum primers, and the 130 grain Hornady bullet. The bullet I use is the now discontinued single shot pistol bullet, (SSSP) but I see Hornady still makes a 130 grain pointed bullet.

If you use the rifle for hunting the Barnes 130 grain is good choice, if premium bullets are in your budget.

AGAIN as others mentioned  CAUTION should be used in loading for these old rifles or an older barrel mated to shotgun frame.

[zoner]

since you reload,you might try starting with a cast bullet and something like 4895....hodgdon says this powder can be downloaded to 60%. Start there,shoot a couple,and check out the gun real good as you do it. Look at your fired primers,maybe take the barrel off and look at the breechface and if everythings ok go up a grain or a half grain at a time continuing to check things out as you go.If you get to within 100-150 fps of factory loads and it's grouping well,be happy,bullet placement is much more important than max velocity. The bottom line...you can always get another gun,but your eyes,hands etc are a one time deal...you can't buy new ones. If your really worried about it DON'T DO IT!!!!!  nuff said.....Mike

[wreckhog]

I tend to agree. If you are going to reload cast bullets for plinking and kill 1 deer a year with a factory load, maybe. But full house varmint loads will be heavy use.

[Spanky]

I've shot alot of factory ammo through a SB1 mounted 30-30 and I've not had any problem with primer flowback. Same with 22 Hornet, 32-20, 357 mag, 44 mag, 45-70. All factory ammo mind you.
That's just me, I'm not telling anyone to do it.



Spanky

[Barrabruce]

  Found some Remington primers that Iv'e had kicking around for years!!!
But all me cases have the winchester primers in 'em at the moment.

Think I'll start with about 17 gns of Adi 2207 and work up and see.
Also iv'e got a few 110 gn rn Taipans to try. I think they're jacket is softer soooo hopefully....

Will check each round for primer flow back and pressure signs.

I will take of the barell and check to see if I can find any differences.

I haven't a cast mould yet..I'm waiting to fire a few cases and do a chamber cast and figure out the best fitting bullet for its throat etc.

Some of the  sad mob of buggas that go to the range will help sort me out.
 But the weathers good and the fish are jumping
So I may be mostly on me own again.

Which aint a bad thing either!!!

Barra

[zoner]

i put my 357 barrel on a 1979 Topper frame today,it locked up tight and headspace was perfect,and went to the range with my target load, that's 5 grs 231,158 gr RNL,WSP primer. The firing pin in this shotgun frame is just a hair bigger than my sb2. I fired 50 rds,checking primers and the gun out real good,no problems at all....Winchester manual says this load is about 25,000 cup.

[mechanic]

My frame was part of a set with a 20 ga. and 357.  It is definately an SB1.  I have fired about 150 rounds through it so far, but with far less than max. loads I got some primer perforation.  I'm going to fit it to my SB2 frame my 243 is on and just leave the shotgun barrel on the other frame.  I'm shooting "almost 357 maximum" in the deep throated 357 which required only a few thousands trim of max brass.  I don't think the pressure is that high, but the primers are too soft for that bigger firing pin. 

Your eyes are worth more than the cost of another frame.  Don't risk it.

Ben

[Barrabruce]

I lIve and still have most of me facilties still in order!!!

Hmm Just as the people here have written and offered helpfull advice.
Duly taken and considered.



I went out and shot it today. Put 75 rnds thought it. Cleaned it once.

Hmmm
heres a pic of some of the groups I shot with it.
First off I would like to say I started with 17 gns of ADI 2207 win mag primers 150 Hornady sp interlocks.
Mild
up to about 21.6 grains and then you could feel the pressure kick in.
22 grns and they strung verticle
22.5 seemed verticle and horizontal for some reason
23 grains and the primers were flatened but the edges still round.

At 23.5 grains it was walloping me around..well pretty snappy.
The primers started to creater slightly and a small shiney mark was left on them from extraction.
This must be close to max for my gun. I have no idea of the pressure. Strung horizontal
One of the primers looked as thou it had a very small hairline crack in it. (may have been a bit heavy on the powder)

From guestimation I think they where travelling around 1950 fps.
about 1 1/2 high at 100 yds. roughly 35-45 inches low at the 325 yrd gong.

Grouped somwhere between 1 1/2 inches with the 23 grn loads into about 1" with a flyer.
Somewhere between 22.5 and 23 I presume would be about best.
I left me targets at home and with a 1 inch circle at 100yrds me 'ol 4 x had it covered. By noon it was not as clear or focused as the morning..bit of glare and mirage.

Apart from the 6 lb trigger I think I done well with it.

Remington primers will be used next time.

ACTION ANALYSIS
Before shooting
With a cigarrette paper one could just close the breach and you could pull it out.
With a slightly positive closure it was tight on the cig paper.
After shooting
Analysis the same.

Before shooting
There was a bit of rust on the barrel bit that goes into the locking pin at the back of the action.
After baout 20-30 rounds and the barrell was hot the action seemed to loosen...well you could feel a bit of slop when open but still locked up tightly.
After shooting
I used some white board marker on the area that locates in the pin and it just marks it now. Just a wee bit of marker gets wiped of the barrell lug thingo now but as before todays session it would wipe it clean.

There was no change in the area of the amount that the locking mechamism that I can tell at all.

I had a nice golden wipe of primer or case residue from the extractor wiping on the breach face.

My ears hurt and I'm tried..it was a big day for a widdle Barra.

Quite happy with the lower loads as being a big woosie and shooting of bags not holding the stock is comfortable enough with out to much boot for me.

Things to do
Fix the trigger a bit..
Find a lower pressure load..powder combo...
Think I will not exceed this pressure in this....
I will not use factory stuff.
I may have seated the projectiles out to far and as the barrell and chamber fouled with gunk after a while I found that I had to close the breach abit harder to get some shells in. Probably relating to a higher pressure seemn on a few rounds and One not extracting unfired when the range officer call a cease fire..

Thank god I wear glasses...nothing happened....

Still I'm chuffed with the little beasty!!!!

300 mtre gong aint too bad on the first day and a few 150 yrd bowling pins and scared the crap out of one at 200 yrds for a few rounds.

Long ways to go but If I knew what pressure 23 or 23.5 grains of  Adi 2207 or Hogdens equivilent H4198 is I would know the MAX pressure of this here gun.

Personally I think I would like to go down Just a weee bit more.
Play with the bedding etc

Thanks all.
Obviously chime in and tell me what a twit I 've been etc etc

 


All advice greatfully taken.
Even thou I may have been pushing the envelope a bit..Or too much.
Comments!!!
Bruce

[Bossloper]

I have a SB1 with a .44 mag barrel and one with a 45/410 barrel. I've shot some serious H110 loads through the .44 barrel with up to 370 grain bullets and some stout loads through the 45/410 barrel using .444 brass and I've never experienced any issues to date. I listed some SAAMI pressures below. Given some of those pressures, it's hard for me to believe that a factory 30-30 load will be any more problematic than any of the folks out there shooting .357 mag barrels that were rechambered to .357 max. I could see not shooting 308 or 30-06 on an SB1, but there's not that much difference between a .30-30 and .357 max.

Data from the current SAAM specs (2004)
Please note that some are in psi and some cup

     Cartridge                       Pressure (Max Avg) 
.30-30 Winchester                         42,000
.30-30 Winchester saboted              38,000
.35 Remington                               33,500
.38-40 Win                                 14,000 cup
.38-55 Win                                 30,000 cup
.444 Marlin                                 44,000 cup
.45-70 Government                        28,000
.357 Magnum                                35,000
.357 Maximum                               40,000
.44 Special                                   15,500 
.44 Magnum                                 36,000
12 gauge 3 1/2" mag                      14,000
410 gauge 3"                                13,500
.30-06 Springfield                          60,000
.308 Winchester                            62,000
 

[Barrabruce]

Yeah thanks for that!!
I can see it should preform o.k. then now!!
Big weight off my mind.
Still I'll just load up till it shoots good and keep well under max pressures.
May even buy a box of factory stuff to try if I get cocky
Thanks All specially for zoner going to the trouble of testing his frame out.
Well the rest of you's comments and time taken to help/inform me are greatly appreciated.

Off now for a bit got to get a few things done before I can play with this new toy of mine ...and do things and tweek things!!!
Ohhhh yeeeahhh I do like the way she comes up and points like a shot gun!!! 

[wreckhog]

35 Remington is lower pressure than 357 Magnum? Hmm......

[quickdtoo]

35 Remington is lower pressure than 357 Magnum? Hmm......

Only due to the weaker actions the 35 Rem was available in, it can be hot rodded in stronger actions.    As to SB1 application, the 35 Rem has a much bigger case head than the 357mag, .458" compared to .379", 30-30 is .422".

Tim

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm