Author Topic: burnt out barrel  (Read 1048 times)

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Offline mitchell

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burnt out barrel
« on: June 30, 2009, 05:00:42 PM »
Is it even possible to burn out a barrel on a handi???? I always read people asking what the round count is on a barrel.  With most of the handi rounds you’re not going to shoot out a barrel with a life time of shooting.  I have a 22-250ai that’s pushing a 40 grain bullet really fast and even after 200 the throat looks new.  You just can’t really fire a handi fast enough to get the barrel hot enough to burn out, and even if you did once your barrels that hot you’re not going to be shooting good groups any way .
I just don’t see why people worry about buying a used hunting rifle and wanting to know the round count. Heck most people don’t even keep one.

Whats yalls take one it. Is it really possible by normal hunting, plinking, and target use to burn out a handi?
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline trotterlg

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 05:18:02 PM »
The throat is burned out of a barrel by the hot gasses basically boiling off the surface of the steel.  A lot of gasses moving fast down a small hole is that does them in.  Getting too hot is really a small part of throat erosion.  Your 22-250 should be good for at least 1,000 to 2,000 rounds.  Most hunting rifles are probably damaged more by cleaning than by shooting.  Larry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 05:54:52 PM »
Dave Petzal wrote an article in the July F&S on this topic, the list below is given in the article.

Tim


Life Expectancy

223 3-4k

22-250 2.5k

270 3k

7mm Mag 1.5k

30-30 6k+ (god only knows, his gunsmith friend who helped compile info said he'd never seen one shot out!)

30-06 4-5k

300wsm 2k

300wby 1-1.5k

338win Mag 2.5-3k

What Really Kills Barrels...

Not use, but neglect is to blame. Melvin Forbes, who was a gunsmith for 20yrs before he founded Ultra Light Arms, installed something like 3000 new barrels and saw only three that were actually shot out. What ruined the other 2997 was either no cleaing or improper cleaning. Some years ago, Melvin was on a prairie dog hunt and shot until his barrel nearly glowed. When asked why he didn't let it cool, he said, "I may never get to do this again, but on the other hand there are a dozen shops making new barrels right this minute, so I don't worry about it." And neither should you.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 02:53:05 AM »
This subject (throat erosion) gets me to thinking. I have to agree that more barrels are ruined by neglect than any other reason. Either they are cleaned improperly damaging the throat or the crown. At the other end of the spectrum - not cleaned at all and moisture collects under the powder residue and corrodes the barrel, pitting it up. The average hunting rifle, especially magnums are not shot that much. I could be wrong on this, but I say the higher the kick, the less they are shot, in most cases. A 300 Win Magnum more than likely will not get 1K rounds put through it in 2 life times. The average hunter mounts a scope and zeros it in, using maybe 20-25 shots to zero the scope and try a couple of different loads. If he reloads the count will go up trying to develop a load, maybe 200 rounds. After that he will shoot maybe 10 rounds a year to check zero and shoot maybe 2-3 shots during season. After the initial year, he more than likely will only check zero and foul his barrel for the season and again shoot maybe 2-3 shots during season. Some do not even do that, they just pick up the rifle for hunting season and shoot at game. It will take a lot of years to accumulate 1K rounds. I have known some hunters that have bought 2 boxes of ammo and they are still shooting out of it after 5 years. So I agree that most barrels are not shot out, they are ruined due to poor clean techniques or not cleaning at all.

I am not an expert on internal ballistics, but I do have engineering background. I respectfully submit, that unburnt powder going through a throat causes more damage, than the heat generated or gas cutting by the passing of gases. I make one premise - not all the powder is burnt before it reaches the case mouth. Some of it gets pushed out the case mouth before it is burnt, since it burns from the back to the front. I do not think it gets totally burnt up until it gets a few inches into the barrel. Higher volume of powder + high pressure cartridges do this more that low volume, low pressure cartridges. Does hot gases, cause throat erosion? I think with out a doubt, but I also think that the unburnt powder going through a throat at high pressure causes much more of the erosion than does the hot gases. I do not think that any one would dispute that a 300 Win Mag will erode a throat much quicker than a 30-30. Why? Because the gases in a 300 Win mag are hotter than a the gases out of a 30-30? I do not think so. I think it is the powder that is yet unburnt at high pressure that causes friction that erodes a throat. I think that 35 grains of powder going through a throat at a pressure of 40 psi has less unburnt powder going through a throat than a 300 Win Mag with 75 grains of powder with a pressure of 60 psi. Are the gases of the 30-30 cooler that the gases of a 300 Win Mag? We are talking milliseconds of exposure of the gases to the throat. How much heat can be transferred to the barrel during this time? Wouldn't the 30-30 gases going at a slower rate than a 300 Win Mag be going slower and expose the throat for a longer time to the heat of the gases? No doubt there is some heat transfer and gas cutting, but I do not think it is enough to heat up a barrel or wear away a throat a whole lot. Enough that the very surface is heated up, but not enough to dissipate throughout the barrel volume. I say it is the volume of unburnt powder and it's pressure against the throat/barrel that really does the majority of erosion in a throat. An extreme example - Think of a sand blast against a metal surface and a cutting torch on a metal surface. Now pass both over the surface quickly. Which one is going to erode metal more? Is the metal going to heat up more due to the quick pass of the torch or from the friction of the sand blast? You will find that the sand blast will remove more metal and heat it up due to friction more that the cutting torch. Small necks and high powder volume exposes the throat for longer amount of time to unburnt powder at higher pressures that a low volume powder at lower pressure going through the same size hole. Even though the throat is exposed to the hot gases the same amount of time or longer in the low volume case, the barrel will experience less heat build up and less throat erosion.

Like I said, I am not expert, I just have logically thought this through. So I may be totally wrong here, but I really do not think so. Think about it.
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Offline Reverend Recoil

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 05:08:14 AM »
High power rifle match shooters and the gunsmiths that service their rifles can provide the best information on barrel life.  Many of them shoot 5,000 rounds a year.  Half of that number is shot rapid fire.  The number of acurate shots from a barrel I have heard spoke of 8-12K for 223 and 308, and 5-8k for the 260 Rem.  At this level of shooting boat-tail bullets cause more wear than flat base bullets.  Small bore shooters get 25k - 35k acurate shots from a barrel.  The barrel life on  bolt rifles can be extended by cutting the breach end back by a 1/4-3/8" and re-threading and reaming a new chamber and throat.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 05:28:58 AM »
Here's an article on break-in by Gail McMillan at 6mmBR that touches on barrel life.

Tim

http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html

How to Break-in a Barrel
-- A Dissenting Point of View

Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good.

Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings.

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'.



And another on barrel life and the cost of shooting.

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelcost.html

Barrel Life and The Cost of Shooting
Short Barrel Life Can DOUBLE Your True Cost Per Shot


You Should Include Barrel Costs in Your Shooting Budget
How much does it cost you to send a round downrange? Ask most shooters this question and they'll start adding up the cost of components: bullets, powder, and primers. Then they'll figure in the cost of brass, divided by the number of times the cases are reloaded.

For a 6BR shooting match bullets, match primers, and 30 grains of powder, in brass reloaded a dozen times, this basic calculation gives us a cost per shot of $0.46 (forty-six cents):

Bullet $0.30 (Berger 105 VLD)
Primer $0.03 (Fed 205m)
Powder $0.08 (Varget @ $18.00/lb)
Brass $0.05 (Lapua priced at $60/100, 12 reloads)

Total $0.46 per round

OK, we've seen that it costs about $0.46 per round to shoot a 6BR. Right?

Wrong! -- What if we told you that your ACTUAL cost per round might be closer to double that number? How can that be? Well... you haven't accounted for the cost of your barrel.

Actual Costs per Round Can Exceed $1.00 per Shot
Every round you fire expends some of the barrel's finite life. If, like some short-range PPC shooters, you replace barrels every 700 or 800 rounds, you need to add $0.60 to $0.70 per round for "barrel cost." That can effectively double your cost per round, raising it well past the $1.00 per shot mark.

Calculating Barrel Cost Per Shot
In the table below, we calculate your barrel cost per shot, based on various expected barrel lifespans.

As noted above, a PPC barrel is typically replaced at 700-800 rounds. A 6.5-284 barrel can last 1,300+ rounds, but it might need replacement after 1,000 rounds or less. A 6BR barrel should give 2,200-3,000 rounds of accurate life, and a .308 Win barrel could remain competitive for 4,000 rounds or more.

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 05:42:33 AM »
Reverend Recoil - I think you may be correct - but those guys know how to take care of a barrel. I think you numbers maybe too high - at least for the 223, which I have some experience with. I have a barrel that has been shot maybe 1.5 - 2K rounds - the barrel has never been over heated, it is a single shot and I do not shoot it as fast as I can. I put my hand on the barrel and if it becomes fairly warm to the touch, I let it cool down for a while. I have never shot it until it becomes uncomfortable for me to put my hand on it. It does not show any wear at all at the beginning of the lands, but 8K seems like a lot of shooting with no wear at all. If you mean the wear is not enough to detract from accuracy a whole lot, I can believe that. The bottom line is, it takes a whole lot of shooting to wear out a barrel. In the old days of shooting such rounds as the 220 Swift, I think they burnt out barrels, partly because they did not properly clean them and that they did not have pressure testing equipment and loaded them up very hot + they were using light bullets which I think accelerates wear over a slower moving bullet at the same pressures - which accelerated barrel wear. The heavier bullet does not take as much powder, so it has less powder going down the bore and it is not moving as fast to wear it out. They did this a lot in the old days of wild catting. I was talking to a fellow in OK that was shooting a 22-243. It should be by any logical means a "barrel burner". He said he was getting over 2K rounds out of it before the barrel needed to be replaced. He said that the barrel he had on it now had 800 rounds through it and it did not show any signs of being worn yet. He was shooting heavy bullets - 80 grain Sierras. I do not think he is over loading it and he knows how to clean it.
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Offline mauser98us

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 07:05:27 AM »
Life is too short to worry about barrel burnout. Shoot lots and have fun! ;D

Offline Dill45

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 08:56:42 AM »
 :'(

I go shooting quite often, this is not good news for my barrels lol.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 09:05:00 AM »
We are talking about $90 list price barrels. Burn them out, buy another one. The average barrel I see sold on GBO has probably 100 rounds through it in the description.

Offline Dill45

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2009, 09:15:53 AM »
Handi's I'm not worried about for the reason you gave, though my Marlin 45-70 and 1907 Swede Mauser I am :/

Offline Graybeard

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 09:28:45 AM »
Quote
7mm Mag 1.5k

30-06 4-5k

270 3k


I think anyone who believes there is that much difference between the two is kidding himself. They are basically peas in a pod. The .270 should be almost identical to the 7mm Rem Mag in barrel life.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Spanky

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 09:43:39 AM »
I think Tim would have to live to be about 600 years old to shoot out all of his Handi's :D



Spanky

Offline gould

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 10:07:12 AM »
A friend of mine has a Colt A1 with over 20,000 rounds most FMJ and still shoots great. He said he bought it new in 1975 or 76 for like $400 those were the days I guess.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 10:38:13 AM »
I think Tim would have to live to be about 600 years old to shoot out all of his Handi's :D



Spanky

Probably longer than that at the rate I've been shooting lately!!  ::)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 12:34:28 PM »
I only hope to live long enough to burn out the barrel on one of my guns.  I'll be 29 for the 28th time this Nov. (57) :'( and I don't think it will happen.  The closest I may come is with one of my 357 levers, they get pretty warm when we go shooting with the kids. ;D  DP 
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »


  Heck, if you shot out the barrel on a handi you could still get some money back for it around here. Y'all know you'd be wanting what was left for a barrel stub project.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2009, 12:16:03 PM »
We had a Colt AR when I was young that we shot many thousands of rounds through.  Pop bought 5000 mil spec and they lasted about 4 months.  I had a brother that shot it so much and so quickly that the barrel turned gray and flaked off metal.  It still shot ok until we got a siezed case and had an oblong chamber from excess heat.  Pop beat my bro's backside for a while and had the barrel replaced.  IMHO if the barrel had been allowed to cool properly, that gun would still be shooting on that barrel.  I can guarantee that it had more than 10.000 down the tube.

I can't imagine that you would "burn out" a Handi unless you spent all day shooting for many many days. 
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: burnt out barrel
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2009, 07:34:49 PM »
Competition shooters consider a barrel toast when they can't win anymore. Military considers it done when it can't hit a torso. Big difference.