Author Topic: .357 mag , I outa know better - but ? (Read 1030 times)

Jacko · « **on:** June 30, 2009, 01:35:32 AM »

I have found 12.2 gr of 2400 under a 180 gr Westcast fp projectile is quite accurate in my .357 Rossi lever action and though I have not hunted with it yet am sure it is a good 75 yard medium game load but I wanted a bit more pepper in my loads and a flatter trajectory so bought a batch of 158gr Westcast rnfp projectiles and some W296 powder . I still have several hundered loaded rounds of the 180 gr cast projectiles and won't be doing any load development work until this supply is exhausted .

I trim cases with slight cracks in the case mouth to .38 special length and load up +p .38 special loads using ADI AP70N [ identical to Universal ] and 110gr pills with the intention of using them for plinking/small game loads . I noticed last night that the 158 gr pills when seated to the cannelure in cases trimmed to .38 special length are the same overall length as when the same projectile is seated to the crimping groove in .357 cases .

So I am wondering about the pro's and con's of crimping these 158 gr projectiles in the cannelure instead of the crimping groove and working up a .357 level load in the trimmed cases using the AP70N , W296 and 2400 with the shallow seated bullets . I'm quite happy to continue loading the trimmed cases to +p .38 special level with the light pills if this is as hairbrained as I think it may be . I have only been reloading a few months and am not interested in very hot loads , just accurate loads and am still full of questions

regards Jacko

Savage · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2009, 02:24:43 AM »

Do some research on Skeeter Skelton. He loaded .357 loads in .38 spl cases by seating the bullet out to give close to the same case capacity. I used some of his data to load similar loads back in the 70s. Don't remember the specifics, and don't trust memory enough to drop any numbers. Back in the day when I shot a lot of .38/.357 I trimmed my .357 cases with split necks and used them for .38s as well. Works great and extends the useful life of the brass. For light bullets in .357 I had really good results using H-110. Load carefully!! It would be a GREAT idea to reduce any data you might find by 20% or so as a starting load. Powders currently available, may have different burn characteristics than the same powder of 30 yrs ago.
Savage

Jacko · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:33:39 AM »

Thanks Savage , top info just what I was hoping for . You rang a bell with using H110 as I recalled a note from Hodgdon where they stated it is the same powder as W296 so I have plenty of load Data to research and I had heard of Sketter but needed a push to jog my memory .

regards Jacko

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:36:42 AM »

Quote

For light bullets in .357 I had really good results using H-110. Load carefully!! It would be a GREAT idea to reduce any data you might find by 20% or so as a starting load. Powders currently available, may have different burn characteristics than the same powder of 30 yrs ago.

Winchester strongly recommended NOT reducing loads with this powder more than 10% - reducing a max load by 20% could be dangerous. Current Hodgdon Starting Load data with 110-grain bullets is just 5% below maximum - there is a reason for that.

While many have gotten away with loading this powder light, I prefer to follow the powder supplier's recommendations. I've had 'squib loads' when loading this powder much below max with light bullets - even stuck a bullet in the barrel once....

.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:43:36 AM »

It is fairly common knowledge that you should not reduce W296/H110 powders below recommended levels. They are a ball powder and can ignite hard or detonate late causing an over pressure situation. they usually recommend magnum primers for those powders - you want a hot spark to get them to go off correctly. I have and do use both powders. Just be careful about making sure you do not drop below recommended powder levels and use a hot primer. Generally when I use hard cast bullets, I use Unique, but I am not looking for top velocities either. You might give 2400 a try in your 357. It performs well with heavy bullets and is more forgiving with reduced loads and a regular primer will work just fine. Good Luck and Good Shooting

bilmac · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:59:13 AM »

One of the old Lyman bullets , 358156 was designed by Ray Thompson with two crimping grooves one for 38s and the other for 357s. I have a lot of them loaded in 38s to near 357 velocities.

Savage · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2009, 12:17:22 PM »

Thanks for the correction Lone Star! What you pointed out with reduced loads with H-110 is ABSOLUTELY true!! I was referring to Skeeter's loads, which if I remember correctly, used Red Dot, Unique, and 2400. I can see where there would be some confusion the way I worded that. The reference to H-110 and light bullets was just an afterthought. So, for the record: Do not use H-110 for reduced loads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Savage

Jacko · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2009, 12:46:43 AM »

Noted fella's thanks for the warnings but I was aware of the dangers of minimum loads with W296 , I have enough 2400 powder left to load 60 or 70 rounds so I will use this first . I am going to start reloading the trimmed cases using the 158 gr Westcast bullets with the same measure of 2400 as I use under the 180 gr pills , 12.2 gr and work it up from there . I have plenty of standard primers and will try them first but I found in my rifle with the 2400 and 180 gr bullets I got better accuracy with magnum primers .

I will be using .357 mag length brass and W296 loads from Hodgdon which correlate with my reloading manual and it states "use magnum primers". Just for now I will lay off loading the 38 special length cases with 296 until I have done a bit more research , kind of attached to my fingers and eyes and plain cant afford a new rifle . Still if I can load up these short cases by simply seating the bullet in the cannelure and not the crimping groove and it's safe I will consider it .

I do have ADI AP70 N and will fall back on the 110 gr pills if the short cases show early pressure with the 2400 .

regards Jacko

Mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2009, 01:32:28 AM »

JACKO: Absolutely do not use reduced charges with WW296, period.

Savage: Skeeter Skelton wrote that he used a lot of 38 brass in his 357 revolvers because 357 brass was so hard to get when he was working up his loads. When he used 38 brass in 357s only, he would take any bullet weight and split the difference between the max lpowder charge for that bullet in the 38 Spl and the max powder charge for that bullet the 357 with that bullet, using 2400 powder only, and that was the loading in his hot 38s. This is OK if all you are shooting is a 357, but if you have a 38 spl around that you could inadvertantly load some of those hot rounds into it was a formula for bad times, and Skelton wrote to that more than once.

I have used some of the Skelton loads in my 357s and they are higher pressure than the 38+Ps - they are, I am certain, much closer to the 357 pressures than 38 Spl +P pressures. 2400 was the powder, not Unique or Red Dot.

JACKO: In addition you may find that using trimmed 357 brass to 38 Spl length may cause you to 'ring' your chamber with a combination of powder residue, lube and lead, which makes it a bear to chamber a full length 357. HTH.

Jacko · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:22:15 AM »

Thanks Mikey , I hear the warnings with using reduced charges of 296 . When I bought my Rossi the Gunshop owner gave me the heads up on .38 and the chamber crud . I'm sure I've read many times that 2400 from years past is a differant formula to 2400 in 2009 but it's interesting to read of the experience of days past .

regards Jacko

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:55:03 AM »

Again, I was speaking of Skeeter's loads in general. For midrange loads he frequently loaded Unique, and his pet load for a 2" .38 used Red Dot. I would expect anyone to verify any load data thru reliable sources. I would also hope anyone loading to .357 pressures would have the good judgment to use them in revolvers chambered for .357. In the future, I'll make it a point to be more specific.
Savage

Savage · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2009, 09:32:45 AM »

Jacko,
Did your search turn up any specifics on Shelton's .357 loads in .38 cases? I did a little searching myself. All I could come up with was references to the practice. I'm pretty sure I had some information that Skeeter published, but for the life of me I can't find it. I did find my old data for the 110 and 125 gr SuperVel bullets loaded with H-110. At the time I had no signs of excessive pressure, but looking at the data and claimed velocities, those had to be close to the edge! Good luck, and be careful !!
Savage

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Jacko · « **Reply #12 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:58:02 AM »

Thanks for your efforts Savage . I found this referance in reprint of an article from February 1970 in Shooting Times magazine , I'll back off to 10 or 10.5 gr of 2400 with some 158 gr Westcast's and see how it goes from there . I have some Federal 100 primers I was thinking of using instead of CCI magnum primers , they did not give me best accuracy with the .357 loads and cases but I'll see what happens .

38 Special Cases 158 gr. bullet 12 gr. 2400

125 gr. bullet 14 gr. 2400

(Heavy Hunting Loads)

(The Lyman 358466, sized .357", may be crimped in the top groove for higher seating over 13.5 grains of 2400)

Savage · « **Reply #13 on:** July 02, 2009, 12:27:08 PM »

Jacko,
That's pretty much all I could find online. Several good articles by and about Skeeter tho!

Savage

bilmac · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:45:10 AM »

Elmer Kieth was big into whooping up the 38. I think he was a pioneer in developing the 357. They used to upload the 38 sp and call them 38-44 loads or something like that.