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Offline Tommyt

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Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« on: July 11, 2009, 05:31:10 AM »
Here it goes again
BUT this seems to be a simple solution on Finding out
I copied the bottom of the article
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2700/pub_detail.asp

It makes the debate over Obama’s citizenship a rather short and simple one.
Q: Did he travel to Pakistan in 1981, at age 20?                                                                              A: Yes, by his own admission.
Q: What passport did he travel under?                                                                                                                A: There are only three possibilities. 1. He traveled with a U.S. passport, 2) He traveled with a British passport, or 3) He traveled with an Indonesian passport.
Q: Is it possible that Obama traveled with a U.S. passport in 1981?                                              A: No. It is not possible. Pakistan was on the U.S. State Department’s “no travel” list in 1981.
Conclusion: When Obama went to Pakistan in 1981 he was traveling either with a British passport or an Indonesian passport.
If he was traveling with a British passport that would provide proof that he was born in Kenya on August 4, 1961, not in Hawaii as he claims. And if he was traveling with an Indonesian passport that would tend to prove that he relinquished whatever previous citizenship he held, British or American, prior to being adopted by his Indonesian step-father in 1967.
Whatever the truth of the matter, the American people need to know how he managed to become a “natural born” American citizen between 1981 and 2008.

Given the destructive nature of his plans for America, as illustrated by his speech before Congress and the disastrous spending plan he has presented to Congress, the sooner we learn the truth of all this, the better.
Is he a “natural born” citizen, or isn’t he? It seems pretty clear from the available evidence that he is not. If that proves to be the case he should minimize the damage to the country and follow the Nixon example; he should simply resign from office so that we can begin to clean up the mess he leaves behind.
FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Paul Hollrah is a Senior Fellow at the Lincoln Heritage Institute
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This is the Article from the top
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Well Is He, or Isn’t He?Paul Hollrah


It is a popular topic of discussion in political circles these days, and as the weeks pass more and more people are asking, “Is Barack Obama really a natural born citizen of the United States? Is he eligible to serve as President, or isn’t he?” If he is, then so be it. We’ll just have to grit our teeth until this long dark nightmare comes to an end… one way or another.
But what if he is not eligible? What then? Well, in that case we have a problem… a very large problem, the solution to which could tear asunder the fabric of American society.
Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states that, “No person except a natural born citizen… shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.”
That’s pretty straightforward, yet, when confronted with the possibility that the man who sits in the Oval Office may be a usurper, a great many otherwise patriotic Americans can be heard to say, “What difference does it make? The election’s over; the people have spoken. Get over it!”
Well, it’s not quite as simple as all that and the sooner we can all be satisfied that Obama is or is not a natural born citizen, the better. To postpone that finding for a year or two and then find, conclusively, that Obama is not eligible to serve as president would be disastrous. Every new law and every executive order he had signed, every political appointment, every judicial appointment, every order he had given to the military, and every act and every decision of all of his appointees would immediately become null and void. How could we ever undo all of that?
The American people would quickly learn that it is not much easier to undo two or three years of history than it is to undo a decade or a century. It is imperative that we get to the bottom of this mystery as quickly as possible so that all Americans, regardless of party affiliation, can finally accept that, like it or not, Barack Obama is our president. In order to do that, and to force Obama to end his stubborn refusal to produce his birth certificate, his passports, his visas, and his college records, we must continue to recruit more and more Americans to insist that he do so.
To do that, it is not necessary to prove that he was born in Kenya, not in Hawaii… as his paternal grandmother, a Kenyan half-brother, and a Kenyan half-sister insist… or who his natural father may have been. The proof of Obama’s failure to meet the “natural born citizen” standard is much simpler than that.
To convert a non-believer… one who insists that the Constitutional requirements must be met, but who believes that questions about Obama’s citizenship status are nothing more than sour grapes… it is only necessary to establish the facts surrounding Obama’s travel to Indonesia and Pakistan in the summer of 1981.
Although Obama fails to mention that trip in either of his memoirs… not in Dreams from My Father and not in The Audacity of Hope… he made a potentially fatal error when he mentioned the Pakistan trip during an April 6, 2008 speech in San Francisco… the same speech in which he referred to rural Pennsylvanians as “bitter” people who “cling to guns or religion…” In that speech, Obama explained in an offhand manner the value of that trip, vis-à-vis his knowledge of foreign affairs, saying, “I knew what Sunni and Shia was (sic) before I joined the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.”
When questioned about that trip, Obama’s campaign press secretary, Bill Burton, confirmed to the New York Times, and others, that Obama had visited Pakistan in 1981 on his return from Indonesia, traveling there with a Pakistani friend from Occidental College, Wahid Hamid. According to Burton, Obama stayed in Karachi with the family of another Pakistani friend, Mohammed Hasan Chandoo. Obama has never mentioned the Pakistan trip again.
So it is well established that Obama did travel to Indonesia and Pakistan in 1981. What is not established, and what is critically important, is what passport he used during that trip. There are only three possibilities: Obama could have traveled under a U.S. passport… a passport first issued when he and his mother moved from Hawaii to Indonesia in 1967; he could have traveled under an Indonesian passport, issued following his adoption by his Indonesian stepfather; and it is conceivable that, if he was, in fact, born in Kenya in 1961, he could still have been a British subject, traveling with a British passport. So which is it?   
Unfortunately for Obama, in the present circumstance, Pakistan was under martial law in 1981 and certain undesirables… Christians, Jews, and Americans… were prohibited from entering the country. Pakistan was on the U.S. State Department’s “no travel” list, making a U.S. passport no more valuable than an empty chewing gum wrapper at the Karachi Port of Entry.
So how did a young man who arrived in New York in early June 1981, without the price of a hotel room in his pocket, suddenly come up with the price of a round-the-world trip just a month later? And once he was on a plane, shuttling between New York, Jakarta, and Karachi, what passport was he offering when he passed through Customs and Immigration? The American people not only deserve to have answers to these questions, they must have answers



 can someone bring these questions to the Courts  ???
Tommyt


Offline crustaceous

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 05:38:19 AM »
More birther nonsense
http://wire.factcheck.org/2009/06/05/more-birther-nonsense-obamas-1981-pakistan-trip/

We continue to receive queries about claims and theories advanced by “birthers,” who wish to believe that Barack Obama is not a natural-born citizen of the USA or that he somehow gave up his citizenship and thus is not qualified to hold the office he occupies. One is a claim, first advanced last year, that his trip to Pakistan in 1981 proves he must not have been a U.S. citizen because Americans were not permitted to travel there at the time.

This one is not quite as transparent as the April Fools’ Day hoax that took in many of these deniers of Obama’s birthplace bona fides. That one was a fabricated Associated Press story about Obama’s student records from Occidental College. But the Pakistan theory is just as false. The truth, easily proven, is that American citizens traveled freely to Pakistan in 1981.

Obama did go to Pakistan that year when he was 20 years old with a college friend, after first seeing his mother and half-sister in Indonesia. That much is true. When he mentioned the 1981 trip during a campaign appearance last year, it came as news, because he had not previously written of it in his books.

Some then speculated, or claimed outright, that Obama must have gotten into Pakistan using an Indonesian passport obtained while his mother was married to Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian man whom she had divorced the previous year. Under this theory, the young Obama had somehow become an Indonesian citizen. “Birthers” claimed that the Pakistan trip constituted indirect proof of Obama’s supposed Indonesian citizenship. Philadelphia lawyer Phil Berg even told the U.S. Supreme Court last year, before it refused to hear his case challenging Obama’s qualification to be president, that Pakistan “was on the State Department’s travel ban list for U.S. Citizens.”

But that claim is quite false. There was no such ban. Americans traveled there without incident, as shown by a travel piece that appeared in the New York Times in 1981, dated June 14. Barbara Crossette, an assistant news editor of the Times, told her mostly American readers they could travel to Lahore, Pakistan, by air, rail or road, adding: “Tourists can obtain a free, 30-day visa (necessary for Americans) at border crossings and airports.”

Her article prompted a letter to the Times from the U.S. consul general in Lahore saying he would “welcome an influx of Americans” to Lahore. He cautioned only that in addition to getting a visa for Pakistan, American visitors also should be careful to line up an Indian visa for the return trip if they planned to travel overland. The letter is dated Aug. 23, 1981.

Also, a travel advisory from the State Department dated Aug. 17, 1981 notes that Americans traveling to Pakistan require a 30-day visa, and that any staying longer must check in with Pakistan’s Foreigner Registration Office. A digital copy of the advisory is archived at the Electronic Research Collection, a partnership between the State Department and the Federal Depository Library at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

For those who missed it earlier, high-resolution images of Obama’s birth certificate are displayed as supporting documents to our article “Born in the U.S.A.” The document meets the U.S. State Department’s requirements for proving U.S. citizenship. That, along with a 1961 newspaper announcement of his birth and statements last year by state officials in Hawaii, remove for us any doubt that Obama is indeed a natural-born citizen.

The “birthers” aren’t buying it. They, however, so far have produced what we judge to be zero credible evidence that Obama was born elsewhere, or that he later gave up U.S. citizenship. The false claim about a 1981 travel ban is typical of what’s been offered along those lines.


Offline nomosendero

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 01:51:02 PM »
BHO  could stop all of this by merely showing his Birth Cert.

It's just that simple, others have to prove their Citizenship for this office & the same should apply to him. Heck, when the company I worked for got bought by another Corp, I had to show my B.C. to them.

After all, look how foolish he could make these "birthers" look at this point & it would give good momentum
to his popularity, which is fading. Yes, it would be VERY much to his advantage to show it, now who feels that will happen?
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Offline powderman

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 02:09:10 PM »
Of course he's a natural born citizen, just not in the USA. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 02:13:35 PM »
His refusal to provide a birth certificate and to address the issue about his Indonesia Citizenship, is a bit disturbing to many.  It is not whether we believe it or not, but why is he refusing to put it to rest by providing the documentation to stop it.   
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Offline bigMikeA

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 03:27:24 PM »

Quote
His refusal to provide a birth certificate and to address the issue about his Indonesia Citizenship, is a bit disturbing to many.  It is not whether we believe it or not, but why is he refusing to put it to rest by providing the documentation to stop it.   

BINGO!  That folks is the bottom line.  Thanks Sourdough for summing it up so concisely as you usually do.

Offline bigMikeA

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 03:30:23 PM »
Quote
BHO  could stop all of this by merely showing his Birth Cert.

It's just that simple, others have to prove their Citizenship for this office & the same should apply to him. Heck, when the company I worked for got bought by another Corp, I had to show my B.C. to them.

After all, look how foolish he could make these "birthers" look at this point & it would give good momentum
to his popularity, which is fading. Yes, it would be VERY much to his advantage to show it, now who feels that will happen?

Sorry Nomo, didn't mean to leave you out.  You have hit the nail on the head as well.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 06:02:13 PM »
He won't because he can't. He is not a US Citizen at all much less a natural born one. The folks who put him in place knew that up front. Hell that's likely why they chose him, he has no love for or loyalty to this nation and has been assigned the task of ending it.


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Offline bigMikeA

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 07:45:17 PM »
Yessir.  100% right on in my opinion.

I come to this forum a couple times a day every day, read every post, and usually don't have much to add.  But this, in my opinion, is a HUGE DEAL, and I cannot for the life of me understand why the American people are not up in arms over it.

Perhaps the "up in arms" is yet to come.  God help us all.

Offline powderman

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 03:36:03 AM »
He won't because he can't. He is not a US Citizen at all much less a natural born one. The folks who put him in place knew that up front. Hell that's likely why they chose him, he has no love for or loyalty to this nation and has been assigned the task of ending it.


YEP. The worst part of it is that the dumcraps know it but don't care, as long as they have the power. POWDERMAN.   >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Offline magooch

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 04:22:03 AM »
I tend to be skeptical about BHO's legitimacy on just about everything, but I have to wonder why if there is anything to these claims, hasn't at least a few investigative journalists taken it on as a project.  Yeah, I know--most journalists are B-HO supporters, but not all of them are.  And I think there are enough fanatical conservatives around that would love to pull Obama's ticket if he truly is not legal.

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 04:31:54 AM »
The Sate of Hawaii would be the place his original certificate would be. They have sealed it. Period !

Why? Somebody  told/paid them I presume.

The Supreme Court could demand it but they don't seem to be interested. The only reason I can think of is they don't want to handle the mess if it turns out there is no certificate.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 05:11:10 AM »
This would all DISAPPEAR in a matter of hours were he to not only reveal his birth certificate, BUT ALSO, his college registration forms, and grants which would no doubt DECLARE his birth and citizenship and country CLAIMED AT THAT TIME. NONE OF WHICH IS GOING TO HAPPEN. ;)
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Offline streak

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 08:18:51 AM »
If I am not mistaken, I believe there is to be a court session on July 13 to delve into the Occidental College matter!
I agree with those that posted that this could be resolved just by BO just producing a certified birth certificate!
Also still have heard nothing from Chief Justice Roberts on his findings after supposedly reviewing the documents submitted to him by the female lawyer from California who is representing Allen Keyes in his legal challenge to BO as to his legal legitimacy to be president.

Also would like to hear the rationalize for BO retaining a law firm to quash all information regarding his college documents, birth certificate information,etc. Supposedly these legal fees are being paid by U.S. tax dollars!
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 09:02:17 AM »
A lot of money is being given to ACORN, his front agency that can do anything they want such as hiring lawyers, or hit men, as necessary.  There is no accounting for the money at ACORN.
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 07:04:12 PM »
i dont care for him but i think the fact that his mother was a u.s. citizen automaticaly makes him one.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 01:17:02 AM »
i dont care for him but i think the fact that his mother was a u.s. citizen automaticaly makes him one.

Not true.  A man I once worked for had a child while in the military.  She was not born on base, but rather in a civilian hospital in Africa.  He and his wife both were of course, US citizens, but the girl had to apply for citizenship when she was old enough.  She then had dual citizenship, as she was considered a citizen of the country in Africa where she was born.  I was told that if she had been born on base, she would have been considered a US citizen......
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Offline no guns here

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2009, 03:13:09 AM »
Not necessarily "not true".  My son was born 29 Dec 1999 at Lueven University Hospital in Leuven, Belgium.  His mother and I are both American.  We did not have to apply for citizenship or anything.  Took the Belgian birth certificate to the embassy, got it converted to an American birth certificate, filled out the paperwork and voila, an American passport was in our hands before he was 2 months old.  He is automatically an American citizen once the birth is registered with the State Department.  Not that he wasn't an American citizen before he was registered... but no one knew.  Sort of weird how we have to tell the State Department that he was born.  When I was born in Oklahome in 1967, no one had to tell anyone anything.  The state of Oklahoma was the only government that knew I existed for the next 15 years until I got a SS card.  Was I a citizen?  I was but nobody knew.  My son is also eligible for Belgian citizenship.  We would have to take his Belgian birth certificate and register him with the government there.  We have never done that.  If when he reaches 18 he decides to do that, he can.  Anyway...

While I hope that someday we resolve this issue and find that he is/was ineligible I have questions about it all.

One of my soldiers was born in England to an American father and an English mother.  Is he natural born?  Could he be President?  According to some, if he wasn't born on American soil he couldn't be president.  My son couldn't be either.  BUT the kid of an illegal alien who had crossed the creek 10 minutes prior COULD be president because he was born in America.  Hmmmmmm... makes me think and that makes my head hurt.  Obama was born to an American mother.  He should be every bit as much of an American as my soldier.  He should be more American than the kid of two illegals that is born in America.  However we still get into the area of "was his mother old enough to confer citizenship"?  Well, if a 17 year old mother can't confer citizenship then why do people under 18 have to have passports.  Are they citizens or not?  Could my 16 yo daughter have a kid her in Germany and that kid would citizen or not.  She wouldn't be 18 so she couldn't convey citizenship.  Would he then by default be German?  Would he be American?  What if he was concieved by an 18 year old American guy and my underage daughter?  What if the dad was underage too???  More thinking... more headaches.


Help me get unconfused here...


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Offline magooch

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2009, 03:22:47 AM »
Well that clears it up.
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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 03:38:30 AM »
also  who  paid for  his education??

he  was registered as a muslim  in a catholic school  at one time
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Is He or Is he Not a Citizen
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 04:40:13 AM »
Alan Keyes has filed a suit against the college he attended in California to show Obamas records.  If he was registered as a foreign student to get a "free" education, then he is not an American citizen OR he did it to cheat the college out of a free education.  The college will not release his records.  It may end up in the supreme court.  If he provides proof of American citizenship and got a free foreign student education, then he is a lier and cheat.  If he had foreign citizenship and hasn't cleared his American citizenship, then he cannot be president.  So, which is it, why is the college hiding his records?  Why did Hawaii hide his records and wouldn't release anything except an internet copy, which may be a fraud?