Author Topic: Acceptable weight deviations in cartridges and bullets (Read 958 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** June 16, 2009, 04:24:11 PM »

I am tuning up the H&R 22 Hornet, and graduated to 50gr VMax today and was not very impressed, more with my preparation than anything else. Winchester Factory Super X 46gr HP still has the lead in accuracy out of my rifle. I have a 1 in 12 twist so the heavier bullets are OK. So I am now digging deeper to get a handle on how close tolerances need to be for hunting accuracy sake - I will be happy with 1 MOA. So I did discover, or confirm really, that Winchester Small Pistol Primers are hot, and I am going to go with the CCI.

Now to my question. What is a reasonable bullet weight spread and case weight spread? I have 49.3gr to 50.3gr for my bullets and from 50gr to 52.6gr for my cases.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

mitchell · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2009, 05:09:36 PM »

well the closer to no deviation the betterof corse, but for me i take bullet down to 2/10 a grain and case to 1/2 grain if i'm going nuts on accuracy. but for every day shooting within a grain on case and 1/2 on bullet. more importantly turning your necks and rolling your bullets .

well it helps me sleep at night

mitchell · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2009, 05:12:42 PM »

BTW i dont think your going to send that 50 grain bullet fast enough in a hornet with a 1-12 to get it shooting good , i would try 40's and go for top the line bullets if your going for accuracy V-maxs are nice and i love them but there is better out there

briannmilewis · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2009, 05:32:27 PM »

Mitchell - I appreciate the input. Just read somewhere else that a 3% deviation case weight for hunting is identical to what you have advised. I reduced the outliers a pair at a time and got down to 1.96% variation on the cases without losing too many. The difference between 4.87% deviation and 1.96% was keep 37 cases and reject 7 cases. Your one grain spread on the case and .5 grain spread on the bullets is perfect.

I feel a lot more comfortable and more competent that I was able to walk down this path systematically and can get confirmation of my finding from your real world experience.

I will also get some 46gr Winchester hollow-points because they are ahead right now, what other bullets do you think I should try?

mitchell · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2009, 05:50:50 PM »

berger 30's

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=128497

berger 40's

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=770793

Sierra Varminter 40's (great bullet for the money)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=530464

barnes Varmint Grenade 36 (kinda a shot in the dark for me rifles either love em or hate them)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1250118295

also i've always have better luck with H110 but most everybody i know loves lilgun for the hornet , so u may want to try both

btw good move with the switch to CCI primers they always shoot better for me

Sourdough · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2009, 08:14:12 PM »

I buy bullets in batches of 200. I weigh every bullet and sort them into groups by weight, 1/10th grain increments. I then load groups with 20 or more, to make full boxes. Anything less than 20 waits till the next batch. I use Nosler Accubonds.

I also group my cases by weight, grouping them as close as possible together, by half grain increments, after trimming.

I weigh all powder charges, then weigh all finished rounds.

This is the procedures used when loading for long range shooting, for my 30-06 Handi and .338-378.

For .223 I just load them as they come from the boxes. I don't bother weighing anything but the powder. I shoot too many of them, with too many different guns to worry about them.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2009, 08:32:52 PM »

Mitchell - Thanks for the Midway links. They ahve a birthday special on for me so I will have to check their prices against Grafs. I live in Jefferson City, MO and Midway and Grafs are equal miles from my place. I can do a will call for Midway in the afternoon if I order early enough, and if we go to Grafs they have a good showroom, but they ship for free...so if I get ahead of myself sometime I will order online and save the gas.

Sourdough - I like the process you outlined. I was wondering if anyone weighed the final round, I guess you would catch charging mistakes that way, or an out of spec case or bullet that may have slipped by.

zoner · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2009, 02:03:02 AM »

couple of observations about the Handi hornet.....it's really set up better for 40-45 gr bullets velocity wise....my groups improved by switching from small rifle primers to small pistol primers...i used mostly 296 in mine and it shot better groups at slightly less than max charges...good luck

briannmilewis · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2009, 04:55:54 PM »

Zoner - Thanks for the tip. I am actually going to try Accurate 1680, slower than L'il Gun, some 33gr Speer TNTs and again with the Sierra 40g SP. I thought I was heading in the right bullet weight direction after all my reading, until Mitchell set me straight to look below 50 gr. I am trying both small pistol (all I have loaded so far) and small rifle primers, and was going to try W296 and H110 next if I can't find a sweet load with LGun or 1680.

I got into centerfire and reloading at the same time, and I am absolutely loving it. It appeals to the mechanic/engineer geek that lurks inside I guess. But I love the preciseness (sp.?) and care you have to put into building loads. I am already thinking about my next Handi, it will be a synthetic Hornet rechambered for 221 Fireball. I wish H&R would just make a 221, but we can live in hope. Also, I am having fun tweaking the 22 hornet we started with, that is going to become a K as soon as I have enough cash for the reloading dies.

Thanks again all, so pleased to have made your acquaintance.

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2009, 06:53:32 PM »

Brian,
If you like the exact mechanical aspect of reloading be sure to get a catalog from Sinclair International. The catalog is fantastic!

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2009, 11:20:38 PM »

I have a 223 that I have to turn necks for. I have turned necks on regular 223s, 221 fireballs and 222 Remington, but I have never turned necks on a 22 Hornet. The necks are very thin to start with. BTW I have not had good luck with boat tailed bullets out of my 22 Hornet. You should be able to stabilize 50 grain bullets out your Hornet, but stick to the flat based bullets, they are shorter. I know they will stabilize OK, I have shot Midsouth 50 grain Varmint Nightmares out of mine with out problems. I suspect that even 50 grain V-max will stabilize, but like I said the boat tailed bullets do not shoot worth a darn in mine. As far as loads are concerned I like W 296 or H 110 for 35 grain bullets and below with CCI small pistol primers. I use a minimum load right out of Speer's #14 manual. I get good velocity and no excessive stress on the cases, making them last a long time (for a Hornet). You might try some 45 grain Hornady Hornet bullets, they seem to shoot well out of a number of guns and they blow up well with the reduced velocities you see out of a 22 Hornet. Good Luck and Good Shooting

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2009, 03:46:10 AM »

For some reason case length is very important in my 1-16 twist Model157 Shoots the 46grainers perfect though. Kurt

mitchell · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2009, 11:27:31 AM »

laotto is right i wasn't really thinkin about the hornet when i wrote my post turning the necks on a hornet probibly aint all that good of a idea

briannmilewis · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2009, 03:06:00 PM »

Thanks for the new replies, it is all adding up to a lot of fun, and progress by the way, and I will get that catalog.

I changed my planned approach so today I picked up an order at Midway, and got some primers (single boxes, not cartons) at BassPro and The Powder Horn, both in Columbia along with Midway.

Here is what I loaded - 12gr L'il Gun, Prvi brass (sorted to max 1gr deviation per lot), Sierra 40gr Blitzking, 40gr V-Max, 50gr V-Max, and Nosler 40gr Ballistic Tip, all kicked off with PMC Small Rifle Primers, CCI Small Rifle primers, and Remington Small Rifle bench Rest primers.

My testing will be finished tomorrow, my boys spent too much time sniping the Clay targets on the 50 and 100 yard range we had to ourselves. But the big new is, I assigned all my brass that would not fit into a standard deviation into the new Fun Lot. Fun cartridges will get any bullet, powder, case and primer, so I did not have to scrap any brass that has not been damaged. The boys were shooting nothing but 50gr V-Max and they were good enough to take out the clays at 100 yards.

My test started with Nosler BT and CCI primers, and I got a flier, but the other two from the cold barrel were 1/8th center to center, and the flier made for a 5/8" group at 50 yards. The big deeerrr for me was when I was charging cases seeing the top of the powder at the same height in every case...I know that's the goal, but I love it when a plan comes together and I finally see for myself what other relate, the powder height was so hap hazard before I sorted the cases.

So I will burn 24 more rounds tomorrow and have my data on the 12gr L'il Gun and all three primers and all four bullets. Thanks again for your help, will report tomorrow night.

P.S. I know, I know, I sound like a kid in a toy store...

briannmilewis · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2009, 03:09:21 PM »

Mitchell - I forgot about the neck turning. You are right, the Hornet necks are way too thin, however, if you use Lee dies, and actually read the chapters in the Lee Reloading Manual 2nd Edition, Richard Lee has a good piece on how they designed their dies to address a lot of what neck turning takes care of, and yes, I do know with the larger cases neck turning can provide a wondrous result.

mitchell · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2009, 04:25:47 PM »

im not a big fan of lee dies unless its a straight wall round , good to know tho i may just have to start playin around with them again

Bob A · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2009, 09:07:20 AM »

When I first got my Handi Hornet, I tried just about everything looking for the best load. I weighed cases, bullets and charges. I tried short flat bottom bullets and long boat tail. Some worked well, some didn't but nothing has been more consistent or easier to load that 40 VMax with a 13.5 gr of Lilgun. My load is too long for Hornets with mags but works just fine with the single shot Handi. I still weigh the powder but every thing else is as it comes. Neck sized with the Lee Collet die I generally hit what I aim at, which is mostly squirrels out to 150 yards and the occasional coyote. Target shooting got boring, so I shoot targets with rifles that still need load developement.
Sounds like some of the Handi Hornets don't like Boat Tails, but mine is real happy with the 40 VMax

Bob A

briannmilewis · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2009, 11:55:26 AM »

Thanks for additional input. I use a light weight bipod and had to create a temporary rear rest for most of the testing. It helped a lot, and I think a good rear rest would help more too before the next test.

I got some very good results with all three bullets at 50 yards - 40gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 40gr V-Max and 40gr Sierra BlitzKing - each one gave me at least one three shot group that had two shots 1/4" center to center, and another flier (which I am pretty sure is due to the fact that I did not have a good rear rest.

The best groups were:

1/4" for 2 shots and 9/16 (3 shot group)
1/4" for 2 shots and 1&9/16 (3 shot group)
1/4" for 2 shots and 9/16 (3 shot group)
5/16" for 2 shots and 9/16 (3 shot group)
5/16" for 2 shots and 5/8 (3 shot group)
5/16" for 2 shots and 7/8 (3 shot group)

The other revelation, and probably everyone on the planet accept me knows this...I use Shoot.N.C targets for obvious reasons. But what today told me was that certain bullets are better stabilized than others, and the well stabilized ones cut clean holes thru the targets, other less stable ones leave a ragged hole! I saw it first with 2 groups shot with the 40gr V-Max and 12gr of L'il Gun, and some Nosler shots from the same group.

Also saw more good groups with CCI Small Rifle primers and the most from Remington Bench Rest primers.

So next and final report will be when I have a decent rear rest. Thanks for all your help.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2009, 03:39:00 PM »

Great topic and info from all. Thanks! I don't have a Handi barrel in 22 hornet YET! Hopefully when the barrel program shows some promise. I have two Ruger hornets I've been messing with for over 10 years and still haven't figured them out to my satisfaction. I weigh all bullets and load the same weight in each lot. Never weighed cases in any caliber, may try it. Hardly enough time for all the rest. I'm trying the 30 gr. Varmint Grenades now. Best bullets before were 40 gr V-max Moly. I bought a couple hundred 46 Wins from Cabelas before the price increase 9.00 then I think. Haven't tested them much, havn't found right load yet. I wanted a light bullet and the 35 v-max was so short and not accurate for me in what I tried. I use Lilgun and did use 110 and IMR & H 4227. The most difference I have found lately is the primers. I used to use mostly WSR. Bought a few diff. brands before they ALL disapeared. Benchrest primers seemed to work well also. Just got the 30 V.Gs a while back and tried a couple loads yesterday. Not bad but not great. The first shot above the 6 was to foul the clean barrel they went left and down as I shot. I think I need to bed this gun when I figure out how. Sometimes it shoots good then next time it wanders. Nice small gun next to the Handi. The other Ruger is the heavier grey stainless. It shoots 40 gr v-max moly and benchrest primers great. The single shot may do good with the 36 gr V.Gs. Being longer you may be able to seat them out farther. Have you played with OAL? Check your chamber. I have no reason to shoot 50gr hornets. I would use 221 FB or 223 for over 40gr. I will try 30 Bergers and Pistol primers. Not done that before. First time I used Fed primers, hope this is not the best they will do. Bought the last 600 a shop had a couple months ago cause I didn't see a 1000 wsr I forgot I had. Afraid I would run out. DUH! Gettin Old Sucks!

briannmilewis · « **Reply #19 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:00:02 PM »

bigvarmnt - That is a really good rundown of your trials and tribulations. It is funny how trends seem to go with components. I think weighing the cases helped me because it appears to be directly related to case capacity, and that is just a group of cases within 1gr of each other.

Again I changed my mind of what I will try next. Never made it to the range today but I will be prepping a bunch more rounds with Remington bench rest and CCI primers, but this time with maximum 1.85" OAL and full cases of L'il Gun, using the same number of cases from different lots with all four bullets. I have read enough other reviews of the Hornet and L'il Gun that I know you can't overcharge a case with it. The Prvi cases will barely hold 13gr as they are much heavier than Winchester and Remington cases. So each load will be a little compressed but not dangerously so.

I also polished my chamber a little yesterday as I get stuck cases here and there but they are not over-pressure loads.

Had Fail to Fire on three CCI Small Pistol Primers yesterday. Strange. The firing pin strike looks normal, so I don't know what the problem was. It happened only with my boys and I was wondering if they didn't lock up properly.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #20 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:39:21 PM »

Now I understand - You know how the common wisdom is the 22 hornet cases are very fragile and you have to be careful seating bullets? Well, I can categorically say that you cannot seat flat based bullets (Sierra BlitzKing) with a case completely filled to the top with powder. I crushed four cases before I got wise and skimmed off enough powder to leave the powder maybe just a millimeter below the lip, only then did the Lee Seating die take care of it with a slow ram speed.

Interestingly, I used pliers to get the bullets out but the powder would not come out because it was actually "compressed." The VMax and Nosler BT have boattails I think, at any rate, they have a nice bevel to help with seating. We live and learn.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #21 on:** June 24, 2009, 12:33:32 PM »

Greetings. I did not wait to get a rifle rest or sandbags to finish my testing. What I did however, was shim and trim the forend to only touch the barrel at the screw hole, and to not touch the receiver also, left the bipod on, and moved my hand from under the forearm/bipod location, to gripping the trigger guard. Rain washed us out, so I got no more than 12 rounds off.

The first target shows 6 rounds, Winchester brass, 40gr Nossler Ballistic Tip, 12gr L'il Gun, Remington Bench rest Small Rifle primer, OAL 1.84", 50 yards...Shot 1 low...dialed elevation up, shot 2 to the right, dialed windage to the left, shots 3-6 maximum 1/2" group. First shot was from a cold and uncleaned barrel , all other shots 1 minute apart, no wind, 90+ degrees.

Next target shows 4 rounds, Prvi brass, 40gr Nossler Ballistic Tip, 12gr L'il Gun, Remington Bench rest Small Rifle primer, OAL 1.84", 50 yards...3 shots - 5/16" group, add the flier and it is a 3/4" group. All shots 1 minute apart, no wind, 90+ degrees.

Started one more group, 40g VMax, same specs as above with Prvi brass, but OAL 1.85"...2 shots off and a 2" group, then the rain washed us out.

I think the only thing left to do is try out my 40gr Sierra BlitzKing and also do more work on the forend to make sure it really has just the single point of barrel contact.

Thanks for all your help folks.

Barrabruce · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2009, 03:33:57 AM »

pbase 12 lg oal 2.850 rsrbr primer 40 gn sierra
From your pics I think this one needs a 10th or 2 of a grain less powder and in should group tighter.
I'd guess its on the top of the vibration node and strining them horizontal if you wernt in the wind.

A good steady comfortable rest for consistancy when shooting will help sand bags and towels etc does me!!

Relax and just shoot!!!

Poking away and rushing has no place in this type of a test....to me anyways!!!

Don't ferget a wind flag either and there is never no wind!!!! and the hardest thing for those .22lr benchrest shooters are light changing puffs of wind. Hornets are pretty wind prone too!!!

Barra

briannmilewis · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2009, 07:54:42 PM »

Barrabruce - appreciate the input. last time we were out I took a kitchen timer and waited 1 minute between shots. When the temp was in the 80s the barrel never really got hot...my teenage sons are not the patient type and 1 minute between shots was an eternity to them. Wind flag is a brilliant idea, and yes, we notice the better grouping when the wind has died away. I will try to cut down the charge a little as you suggested.

omcforever · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2009, 09:27:46 PM »

I shoot AA 1680 and Lil Gun with 40 grain nosler ballistic tips...weigh and sort cases and bullets---very accurate handi !!!

briannmilewis · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:15:25 PM »

omcforever: Thanks for load info, AA 1680 was going to be next try for regular pressure loads, and I am going to try Reloder 7 for low pressure loads after I do the K-Hornet rechamber, and I am going to track case life between the powders. Now if I can just get a job to pay for all this, that would be an improvement.