info on range set-up requirements for Smallbore Silhouette??

[detritus]

howdy,

I'm pretty much a complete neophyte where Smallbore Silhouette and for that matter silhouette in general is concerned so please bear with me....  these questions came to me after a conversation with some other shooters at my local range,  and i figured i'd ask for my own as well as their benefit

for various reasons i have become interested in what would be required to have a proper and safe Small Bore Silhouette added to an existing range.

i recently had a discussion with a few of my fellow range members, who shoot Rifle silhouette here locally.  seems as if a number of factors, including the refusal of the current "Silhouette director" to entertain the idea of a Small bore match (Rifle and Pistol silhouette are under one director, so he's a bit over extended and understandably reluctant to start another set-up), have lead to the rifle silhouette discipline Dying out at our club..

an idea has occured to a few of us now shooting or with an interest in shooting one of the various rifle silhouette "games" (HP, Smallbore, BPCR, etc) to try adn get the Rifle discipline placed under a separate director adn so on.  and possibly re-vamp what we have going on to as to try adn drum-up more shooters etc.

and since we can get more "regular" shooters to TRY something like SmallBore silhouette than we could the high Power form, this is something at least I myself would like to know more about the physical "set-up" needed to bring SB to our range.

mention has been made by someone that there is a need to build some sort of enclosure around the target banks/rails so as to keep any ricochets "inside the berm".  is this true, and if so what type of enclosure is needed??

i don't really know what else to say or ask at the moment,  i jsut wanted to find out as much a possible.

Any and all info you cna give me on this subject would be appreciated.

thank you.

[Don in PA]

Detritus
Our smallbore silhouette range is at the base of a tall hill so no back stops are used. The targets are set on inverted RR rails which are laid on  poles (cut about 2 feet long). We also fill the web of the rail with poles to stop any ricochets that hit in the web of the rail The targets are about 18" off the ground The range is on a slight incline so  misses go into the dirt. into the pole or into the hill. We have not had any trouble with ricochet. NO HV ammo is used.

Don in PA

[yankee]

D   It is always nice to have some type of back stop directly behind each animal bank.  This makes spotting the misses much easier.  The back stop can be dirt, sand or metal.  I have even shot silhouettes with paper or card board backer for spotting shots only.   Are we answering your questions?   It is good to go to different ranges and see how they do it.  Preferably where they are shooting silhouettes.  Where are you located?  Maybe there will be some place close by where you can get ideas.  The NRA has some ideas on how to set up a silhouette range just give them a call.

[detritus]

yes, you guys are answering what few questions i can think of right at the moment. like i said i'm so new at the whole concept. (I've never shot a silhouette match in my life as if yet, watched a few, and TRIED to shoot one a few months back but,  me+ offhand +a rifle bordering on too heavy for offhand+ a trigger as sensitive as THAT guy had = bad idea.) that i don't really know WHAT to ask.  :?  

actually the largest question i sort of wanted answered was, me trying to be nice about "Is our current Match Director feeding us a line of BS b/c he just doesn't wanna deal withj the prospect of starting up Small bore"   and so far the answer seems to be leaning toward "YES".  his response to the idea is something along the lines of, "not enough interest" (BS, it hasn't been tried in near 20 years as best anyone can figure), and "Can't do it because to do SB rifle we'd have to build some form of 'enclosure' or bullet trap around each of the rails to that anything that bounces ou and up doesn't leave the range or come back at the firing line" (not so sure about this one b/c what he says makes sense in a way, but then again you guys seem to be talking about setups not THAT much different from our current High Power Silhouette set-up, just closer in.

i've come across one idea for a set-up that would work in the short term, and would allow us, to simply get people TO the matches to see what it's all about etc, see if there IS enough of an interest within the over all gun club to support the continuation of the rifle silhouette group. and if so drum up support for any needed additions, or changes to the range set-up.  
 it would involve setting up not banks of "falling plate" type targets on rails as seems to be the norm, but instead replaces them with sets of "swingers" (or are they called "gongs" even that small?) and scoring a "hit" as anything that makes the plate move.

this as i understand it would not be a "sanctioned" way of doing a match, but for a year or so who cares? the goal at first is to simply see how much if any support we could get for a more permanent and "offical" set up.

the idea came from the "rimfire silhouette" match held by a range that that a friend in WA, goes to.  this match is held just for the heck of it, it's not sanctioned by any "governing body" (he or i am aware of). but it garners high shooter attendance, and THAT as i said would be the inital goal of starting a smallbore match, to simply "GET MORE SHOOTERS".

the only other thing that i personally can think of that MIGHT get more folks into shooting rifle silhouette at our club, would be to allow guys to shoot BPCR(Black Powder Cartrige rifle) silhouette at the time of the HP silhouette match, since i am given to understand that the HP and BPCR 'course of fire" both use the exact same plates adn distances, the differance being tha the BPCR guys would be allowed to shoot the pig, turkey and ram stations from supported positions (seated, cross sticks etc)  i'm gonna go post a note on the BPCR board here to see about that.

as i said this is an attempt to garner info on how Rifle Silhouette might be "Saved" at our range.  so any additional ideas that might be helpful but do not pertain to smallBore are welcome as well.

thak you for your time and your information, again any and all further info is appreciated  :-)

[detritus]

D   It is always nice to have some type of back stop directly behind each animal bank.  This makes spotting the misses much easier.

actually this is how our current High Power silhouette range is set up, with each rail backed by a small rise.  

As it is right now some improvement is possible.  the "NRA High Power" group isn't exactly happy with how some of the target banks are set in relation to their "across the course" firing points, for two of teh target banks, a "miss"  on that bank can result in damage to the crests of the rises upon which the firing points are located.   problem is that, for this situation to be remedied the "rifle range" would have to be re-designed.  something which many of the competitive shooters see as a GOOD thing, but currently that's just a BIT too radical of an idea (not going down that road,  i'd be here all night typing, and it's not what this thread is about).

anyway,  i understand what you mean about having a backer of some sort behind the target bank so as to be able to spot  the shots.

thanks again

[Don in PA]

Detritis wrote:
"the only other thing that i personally can think of that MIGHT get more folks into shooting rifle silhouette at our club, would be to allow guys to shoot BPCR(Black Powder Cartrige rifle) silhouette at the time of the HP silhouette match,"

This would be great if you could work out the time factor. Strings in BP are 12 mim. long (first five plus sighters 7 min., second five 5 min.) and I think for Hi-Powder there 5min not sure but I know they are much shorter strings.
At our club small bore silhouette is by far the most popular activity. Our matches are not NRA approved and anything goes. As long as it's shooting  22RF  standard velocity. We do have two classes though target rifle and hunter rifle.
Don

[detritus]

At our club small bore silhouette is by far the most popular activity. Our matches are not NRA approved and anything goes. As long as it's shooting  22RF  standard velocity. We do have two classes though target rifle and hunter rifle.
Don

that is pretty much the type of thing I see,  when i think about this situation.  a shoot "for the fun of it" maybe have a small pot (like entry fee+ a cut for each other fee in the class, or similar) that come out of the entry fees for each class or something.  but at first more like just something to get people on the line.  maybe if we get enough of a "group of regulars" poll them to see if they want to go "offical"  etc.

as for the BPCR/S (a concept that i have NOT passed by anyone else yet.. btw, i'm just gathering ideas etc) my thoughts on how to deal with the difference in "string time" is along the lines of having all teh BP guys on a single "relay" that shoots their strings while the HP guys spot or prep for their string.   NOW if it so happens that we get more than 3-4 guys shooting the BPCR guns on a regular basis, then it would be time to talk to those regulars about  how to best schedule a separate BPCS match for them.
another thought i've had would be to run not a true BPCR match but one where the same RIFLES are used, but you're not limited to BP and substitutes. that would get all the guys who've wanted to try it but don't wanna mess with "that messy Black powder stuff" as many think of it.

[yankee]

D    It sounds like you're getting the idea.  It also sounds like things are set up for the highpower silhouette.  The biggest thing there is the targets and something to stand them on.  For rimfire  or 22 I have shot the targets sitting on the ground, on railroad iron, on grader blades, on angle iron, on flat iron,  on two x fours, on 4 x 4's and from rods sticking out of the ground with flat tops welded on them.  You  can get 20 rimfire targets 5 of each kind for around $65 or$75.  More questions  just holler

[detritus]

D    It sounds like you're getting the idea.  It also sounds like things are set up for the highpower silhouette.  The biggest thing there is the targets and something to stand them on.  For rimfire  or 22 I have shot the targets sitting on the ground, on railroad iron, on grader blades, on angle iron, on flat iron,  on two x fours, on 4 x 4's and from rods sticking out of the ground with flat tops welded on them.  You  can get 20 rimfire targets 5 of each kind for around $65 or$75.  More questions  just holler

Yepper rather nice (i think) High power setup,  we USED to have (actually still ont eh range but "it don't move no more") an old Beat-up "redneck cadilac" type pick-em-up truck that was used exclusively for tending the targets etc, and a shed that all teh various silhouette gear was stored in.  now the truck adn the shed are being 'reclaimed by the land".  the target rails are still pretty well kept up though,

what i would LOVE to be able to do if it works out that we can try it, is to go down to Lowe's or Home Depot and buy a whole crap-load of 6x6es or 4x4s to use as "rails" at the required distances (we can use the existing HP chicken rail as a ram rail fo SB right??) sort of "at the foot/head (firing point end)" of the existing HP range

btw we also have pre-existing set-ups for Feild Pistol and .22 pistol silhouette,  would any of the gear for THAT be of use to a small-bore club??  b/c AFAIK the set-up belong completely to the club and if the disciplines are divided and the new "rifle silhouette" director requests acess to any and all useful gear, then he/she gets it.

[Don in PA]

Detritus
I forgot to mention our 22 silhoutte matches are run on a weekday evening from March to Oct. This could be why there so popular.

Another possablity is to run a 200 yd (off X-sticks, no sighters, no spoting scope, re-entery, black powder only) paper target match for BP Silhouette rifles. We use the ASSRA 200 yd target.  This may get you going with a small investment. Just a thourght.
Don

[detritus]

Detritus
I forgot to mention our 22 silhoutte matches are run on a weekday evening from March to Oct. This could be why there so popular.
Don

(ok like i said many many ideas have run through my head of late)
one of the ideas that came to me was to have a schedule of 2-3 matches a month, at stepped times and dates so as to give an oppurtunity to all who would LIKE to shoot an SB match but coudn't regularly make a lone monthly match, set to the calendar versus their shift rotation (over 70% the community here [or 90+% of the resident population that does NOT commute to houston] works in some capacity, for or in support of DOW and the other chemical plants, and are on shift-work)

most likely who ever took on the task of setting up SB would place a notice in the newsletter and on the range asking any and all interested to contact them, and an idea of when the most folks could come would be obtained and then the participants polled as to what to do.  

as for the BP paper match that's a good idea.  would that in fact be any cheaper than using the existing HP silhouette (again i seem to remember that it's te same target setup) course for a full match though??   great way to drum up interest anyway....

we'll see like i said this whole thing maybe moot if the current director won't let it happen and/or the "Board" is unwilling to separate pistol and rifle silhouette into two categories.

[ppk1]

Detritus,
If you're going to run a SB Silhouette match run a SB silhouette match. It sounds like you just want people to shoot something which is okay but what are you trying to promote. SB or just plain shooting. Paper targets are a waste of time as is anything else other than the real steel animal targets.
You don't have to invest much into a range to start with as everyone has mentioned. A couple of sets of targets, some 4x4 and you're all set.
Just stick with the bascis.

[detritus]

Detritus,
If you're going to run a SB Silhouette match run a SB silhouette match. It sounds like you just want people to shoot something which is okay but what are you trying to promote. SB or just plain shooting. You don't have to invest much into a range to start with as everyone has mentioned. A couple of sets of targets, some 4x4 and you're all set.
Just stick with the bascis.

IF the oportunity arises (ie we can get the support of the current group of shooters AND the board does not shot us down).

what would be done is to run a seperate SB match, possibly (at first) but not nessisaraly(sp?) scheduled to follow the monthly High Power silhouette match.  at least for the first few months to a year this would most likely be like the SB match that Don describes HIS club running.

the reason for the mention for the other ideas is that we ARE trying to find what will bring out more shooters, b/c without that effort and a STRONG effort at that, silhouette will likely b/c just the next in a line of disciplines that have slowly faded away due to apathy.

but i truly beleive the Small Bore silhouette has the most promise at this time and place.  and it is my intention to pass on every bit of info i cna to those in a better position to push through the needed changes with the board.

[blamethewind]

We added smallbore after putting in the highpower silhouette range.  We took dirt from behind the 200 meter berm (with a front end loader, but a tractor with a bucket would also work) to make the berms for smallbore.  Not much dirt was needed.  The berms are wide enough for 20 targets of each animal (4 banks of 5 targets each), and tall enough so you can see your misses.  We used .5 inch flatbar for the rails, with a plate in front of each rail to stop sand from low shots knocking down the targets.  The rails are supported on the ends with chunks of railroad ties.  We also welded pads on the rails to set the animals on.  This really helps when setting targets, and they get evenly spaced each time. The rails are at ground level.  

Berms are really nice to have.  If you build a range, put in berms.  

We have 4 NRA sanctioned shoots each summer, plus a 10 week league.  Participation varies from year to year.  

SB silhouette is a tough discipline which keeps only the truly motivated shooting.  Many shooters fail to stick with it when they realize they are not the shot they thought they were, or don't like to compete with the same gun they got for Christmas when they were 12 years old, while others have invested heavily and turn in better scores.  The same holds for HP.  

 Go for it!   It's a great time!  

Blamethewind.

[detritus]

Ok a thought has occured to me and i want to know if this is right....

somewhere int eh last month or so i've gotten a fuzzy impression that at least part of the "Field and or Big Bore pistol silhouette" course could be used as part of if not all of a SB rifle silhouette course.

is this at all correct??  

Did i Eat bad chese and dream it??

if so where DO they match up and if not why/where don't they??

thanks for hanging with me here guys i know it has to be annoying.

as always any and all info you cna give is appreciated.

[nomad]

NRA Hunter Pistol -- sb and cf -- shoots C-40m, P-50m, T-75m and R-100m. SB rifle shoots P-60m and T-77m.
If you have a dual-use range requirement (hunter pistol and sb rifle) it is permissable to set the turkey line at 76m and be fully acceptable for both disciplines.
You may also shoot pigs @ 50m in sb rifle -- with reduced-size targets. (I think -- but don't know for certain -- that this will still allow 10-in-a-rows to qualify for grand slams but is not acceptable for long-run records.)
IMO you'd be better off just putting in a 60m pig berm with 'real' targets. If nothing else, that gives you correct sight settings for pigs at other ranges.
If you use the range for both venues, there are different target spacing and rail pad requirements with which you should comply but that information is available in the rule book.
Keep in mind that Cowboy Lever uses normal pistol targets, distances, times and rails. If you're just starting out, that's a popular game and attendance is growing -- and it's easily run concurrently with a pistol match...

[detritus]

reason i asked was that there is a full Pistol course all ready in existence at the range.  along with a full High Power silhouette course.  and i was sort of wondering if things crossed over enough to serve for even a short time or (crossed my fingers) that the pistol course just might serve for SB.

sounds like it's close enough to get a start and see if it'd be worth it to make a dedicated course.


so if i read your post correctly half the course is the same with the middle half (pigs and turkeys) offset 10 and 2 meters respectively??


thanks for the info

[nomad]

I think that you need to measure what you have in order to be certain but if you've got a standard NRA Hunter Pistol course, then you have 40, 50, 75 and 100m.
For sb rifle you should have 40, 60, 77 and 100m.

You can make almost anything 'close' work if you have to -- and are prepared to adjust target sizes -- but these numbers are correct for Hunter Pistol and sb rifle. (Cowboy Lever uses the Hunter Pistol course and targets for rimfire and pistol cartridge. If you want to go to the full rifle cartridge Cowboy Lever game, you need to go out to 200m.)

For a 'starter' program, I'd forget about the 2m difference for turkeys and either just set up a 60m pig berm or buy reduced pig targets. OR just shoot regular pigs at 50m and turkeys at 75m and tell the guys that as soon as attendance justifies it, you'll produce a program in line with the real rules but, meanwhile, they're playing on a field that's almost -- but not really -- a legal course and you can't apply for NRA approval until the legal setup is in place.

You need competitors first. 'Run whut y' brung' now and make it 'right' once you see that you have real -- and sustained! -- interest.

If you want, advise me here and we can get together offlist and I'll send you photos of our dual-use range set up both ways.

[jbeckley]

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