Author Topic: The First 10 Rounds in an Encore 300 Win. Mag. and Risky Reloading Practices  (Read 2657 times)

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Offline Grumulkin

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I have a hard time turning down a good deal on an Encore or Contender barrel.  Some time ago, I bought a stainless steel Thompson/Center Prohunter Encore barrel chambered in 300 Winchester Magnum from “arrowstar” right here on Graybeard Outdoors.  It was purported to be unfired and, when I received it, it was pristine.  Best of all, arrowstar apparently has very good taste since the barrel came with a Warne Maxima stainless steel base already installed.

Today I finally got around to removing a 7mm/08 barrel I’ve been shooting and replacing it with my new 300 Winchester Magnum barrel.  Since the Warne Maxima base is what I use on most of my Encore and Contender barrels, it was a simple matter that took maybe a minute to install a Leupold 4.5-14X VX III scope.  I also have a hard time passing up a good deal on a Leupold or Nightforce scope and had acquired the scope on another forum.

Needing instant gratification in seeing how the new barrel would shoot, I decided to load up some cartridges.  What bullet to use?  I had a box of 190 Sierra BTHP match bullets from back in the time a box probably cost less than 10 bucks.  It’s not a weight I usually use so this seemed like a good chance to use some of them.

Then there was the matter of choosing a powder and primer.  I consulted the Nosler manual and found that it lists only loads for Nosler bullets and the closest it came to the bullet I was using in weight were 180 and 200 gr. bullets.  RL-22 was listed as being most accurate with 180 gr. bullets and H4831 as the most accurate with 200 gr. bullets.  I decided to go with RL-22 and extrapolated to get a reasonable starting load (i.e., 69.0 gr.) for my 190 gr. bullets.  I know I should have gone right out and bought a Sierra manual but I didn’t.

Which primer to use?  I decided to use CCI 250 (a large rifle magnum primer for those that don't know) since I think it’s one of the best primers out there for magnum cartridges and even cartridges of medium size like the 308 Winchester.

Lastly, I needed some cases.  Now ladies, sit down and hold on to your seats.  I used new brass and I didn’t resize or trim it!  I confess, I took ONE case and ran it through my Lyman case length gauge and it passed.  My only concession to case prep was chamfering the case mouths since that makes the bullets easier to seat.  The chamfer tool also rounded out the mouth of one of the cases that was bent.

Now I know, that reloading new cases without trimming or resizing them is EXTREMELY risky and that I was taking my life into my hands but that was only the half of it.  They were Nosler seconds that weren’t weight sorted and were probably swept off the floor or taken out of a trash can.  Who knows, maybe Nosler flushed them down some toilet and fished them out of a sewer.  You never know what bullet manufacturers will do when they aren’t watched closely.

Next on the agenda was setting up the Redding 300 Winchester Magnum dies I also bought from Nosler.  I brought my Encore to my reloading area so I could chamber cartridges to be sure the bullets were seated deep enough to easily chamber but not too far off the lands.

One thing you should know about Encores and belted cases.  If you push the cartridge straight in, the belt will probably get held up on the extractor making it impossible to chamber the round.  If you, however, give a little clockwise twist to the cartridge whilst pushing toward the chamber, the belt will slip over the extractor as slick as snot on a glass door knob.

I progressively seated a bullet little by little until the Encore action closed easily with a snap.  Then, leaving the die at the same place I seated another bullet and made sure the action would still close easily.  I marked both primers with a blue permanent marker; those would be the initial sight in cartridges since they were most likely to be the least uniform of the cartridges I would be loading.

I loaded up 10 cartridges with 69.0 gr. of RL-22.  I would have loaded some cartridges with a little heavier weights of powder but I didn’t have time today.

I headed out to the range (my back yard) and set up a target.  My first shot was from about 10 yards.  When a scope hasn’t been sighted in it makes no sense to shoot much further than that the first time since if you tried it from 100 yards your chance of hitting the target would be about the same as your wife volunteering to go out and buy you an 8 lb. jug of powder.

The first shot was about 4 inches to the left of the orange target but the elevation was right on.  Four inches at 10 yards means there will need to be a LOT of correction at 100 yards.  I made a correction of 20 clicks to the right and moved back to 50 yards.  The second bullet hit about 8 inches high and 10 inches to the left.  It’s a good thing I had a large cardboard backer since the shot was off the target and I wouldn’t have seen it otherwise.  I made another correction of 20 clicks to the right and about the same down and fired another round.  It was also a bit left and high but in the black so I made another scope adjustment and moved back to 100 yards.

The fourth shot was pretty much centered but a bit high so I made another scope adjustment and shot a 3 shot group which you can see in the first photo.  I made another scope adjustment and shot a second 3 shot group pictured in the second photo.

So, 10 rounds fired and a load adequate for big game hunting.  Will I play some more with the load?  Definitely since I think this barrel will be capable of 3 shot groups in the 0.5 to 0.75 inch range.  I’ll try some with an increased powder charge to see if the groups tighten up and may try some Federal GM215M primers.  I doubt changing to a different powder will help.


Offline BBF

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I'm not sure why you consider new unsized brass very risky to fire. I have no clue how many times in whatever cartridge I have done so. I do look at the necks and run any bent cases into a sizer die just past the expander ball to round them out again.
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Offline wncchester

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"I know, that reloading new cases without trimming or resizing them is EXTREMELY risky and that I was taking my life into my hands"

???   Maybe not best practice for initial accuracy, but life threating?  How so?
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline Grumulkin

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There was a whole thread on GBO recently on the inadvisability of not trimming and resizing new brass.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,169545.0.html

I guess my sarcasm was too subtle.  I'm actually a very conservative reloader and would not do something I thought was at all dangerous.  I think resizing new brass makes about as much sense as pasturizing your own milk from the supermarket or washing brand new clothes.

Offline wncchester

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"I think resizing new brass makes about as much sense as pasturizing your own milk from the supermarket or washing brand new clothes."

I think it's advisable from an accuracy point of view, but not safety.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline Grumulkin

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I think it's advisable from an accuracy point of view, but not safety.

We shall see.  Granted, cases fire formed or sized to fit a particular chamber will probably make a little more accurate cartridges but I've never found new cases to be all that bad in the accuracy department.

I have 490 new cases to go so probably won't be shooting any resized ones for awhile especially since no one seems to have the Redding neck sizing die I want.

Offline Grumulkin

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I got more range time with my Encore today.  I'm still using those unsized, untrimmed new Nosler seconds cases.  The purpose of today's shooting was to see if increasing the powder charge would result in tighter groups.  Powder charges of RL-22 were 70.0, 71.5 and 71.5 grains.  The group shot with 70.0 grains is pictured and measured 0.845 inches.  The second and third groups were, respectively, 1.141 and 1.555 inches in size.  Pressure was very reasonable at all loads with no excessive primer flattening or sticky extraction.

The rifle is demonstrating what I've seen many times before.  Groups get smaller as the load is increased to a certain point and then start getting wider again.  I know the bullets will kill any game animal in North America at the speed they're going so I'll pick the most accurate load as opposed to the fastest one.

It would appear that 70.0 grains of RL-22 will give the most accurate load.  Once I can get the neck sizing die I want, I'll see if the rifle will do any better with neck sized cases; I'm predicting it will.

Offline sk330lc

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 Nosler Brass is Ready to load out of the Box.   :o 

Wish I could afford to Buy that High dollar stuff. even seconds :'(   ;)

Sorry Just had ta stir the Pot ;D
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Offline Idaho_Elk_Huntr

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Nosler Brass is Ready to load out of the Box.   :o 

Wish I could afford to Buy that High dollar stuff. even seconds :'(   ;)

Sorry Just had ta stir the Pot ;D

I found a deal on 4 cases of Lapua 300 Win Mag. It is ready to go out of hte box

Offline Grumulkin

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It's OK with me to stir the pot and I confess that I even shoot shoot cheap Remington and Winchester brass without resizing or cleaning it.

The first target today was shot out of a cold clean barrel.  I only learned recently in regard to cleaning that:

"It doesn't matter what you use, it isn't good for your barrel.  Once a year is more than enough."

I guess I'm from the old school.  The first guys I shot with that knew much about guns were bench rest shooters so I blame them for my bad habits.  They ran patches through their barrels, with solvent on them no less, after every 5 round string.  Another place I picked up bad information was from Kenny Jarrett in his gun cleaning lecture at the SCI convention last year.

Anyway, you can see that the first shot from a cold clean barrel is high.  This isn't merely an aberration but has happened consistently with this barrel.  It's nice to know where the first shot will hit out of a cold clean barrel and it's also nice to know that the 2nd and 3rd shots seen in the lowermost grouping will be right on.  Some barrels will be right on with shot number one and some will take 5 or 6 shots to settle in.  Even with the first shot thing, with a group like that I should be good to go for deer out to several hundred yards.

This target was shot with the same load as above but with Federal 215M (M stands for match) primers.  In this case, I believe the Federal primers do better than the CCI 250 primers though both work fine.

Now, once I can get my neck sizing die of choice and make some cartridges fireformed to the gun's chamber I should be able to get some real good groups.

A couple of other things you may have noticed.  I finally broke down and changed the scope settings.  The gun is now ready for ground hogs.  Also, I've probably pasted that one target enough; it may be time for a new target.  Yea, I'm cheap.


Offline LaOtto222

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Nice shooting. ;)

As far as full length sizing before loading - I do not do it. I only neck size to round out the necks that get out of shape during shipment and handling. After the thread you referred to, I looked through the manuals I have on reloading. Unless I missed it, they do not mention any thing about full length sizing before loading. They only mentioned about previously fired cases. I think there was a time when you needed to full length size because the cases were not consistent enough. Today with modern machinery and better quality control, the consistency from one case to another is much better than it once was. Unless there is a case that would fall through and not get a step done some where along the way, the cases are very consistent from one to the next (size wise), including the "cheap Remington and Winchester cases. they may vary in weight, have flash holes off center, primer pockets need to uniformed or deburred from the inside, but the out side consistency is very uniform. Some times a obvious bad one makes it through, I have found split case mouths, dents in the side of the case. That does not mean the cases are not uniform dimensionally. I used to full length size every thing at one time. I have found that the cases simply do not need it. They do need some other prep work - IMHO and they do need a visual inspection, but I do that after every time I use them. I think it just comes down to what yu feel comfortable with. I just loaded up 50 38
specials with some Bullseye and 148 grain wad cutters. I did not resize, I just cut the inside with a tool to knock off the edge. I then put them all in a loading block, put in my powder. I then started all the bullets by pressing them in with my fingers to get hem started. I then put them into the press to finish seating them. I also reloaded 100 new LC '06 223 brass - non of which was full length resized. Not a problem with any of them. I plan on loading 400 more here shortly.
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Offline Grumulkin

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I had time to do more shooting today AND I had newly purchased dies at hand; an RCBS neck sizing die and a Lee Collet die.  I would have preferred a Redding neck sizing die just because I like Redding die boxes better but, you take what you can get.  The mission today was to determine if there was any accuracy advantage to neck sizing cases as opposed to the risky practice of using unsized, untrimmed, factory new cases.

I ran once fired cases through a Lyman E-Zee Case Length Guage and all were within accepted tolerances for length.  Now I know that some ALWAYS trim their brass.  Among those who always trim their brass are probably some who also just throw their powder charges from a powder measure; the vast majority of the time I weigh individual charges.  For a rifle that gets 1.5 inch groups from a charge weight of 69.0 to 71.5 grains of RL-22, accuracy would be acceptable even if I threw charges from my powder measure but I weigh charges and believe there is a lot more advantage to doing that than there is to shaveing off a few thousandths of an inch off of a case mouth.  In addition to not trimming the cases, I also put primers in the pockets without cleaning the primer pockets; another risky practice.

I fired 2 fouiling shots and then shot group number one on the left with cartridges put together with new unsized brass and got a group measuring 1.520 inches.  The fouling shots were needed because I had cleaned the barrel again.  With all the barrel cleaning I do, my barrel is probably almost worn out or ruined.

The next group was from cartridges sized with the Lee Collet die and measured 0.870 inches and the last group was shot with cartridges sized with the RCBS neck sizing die and measured 3.545 inches.  Notice, I did not mention a "flyer."  In my opinion, the word flyer is a word used by gun writers to excuse inaccuracy.  A big take home message from the three groups shot side by size is that bullets from neck sized cases hit about 1.5 inches lower than those shot from factory new cases.

I've considered various possibilities for the larger groups especially considering the target which is to come.  I did check bullet runout for cartridges loaded with each of the aforementioned types of cases.  Runout with factory new cases was minuscule while runout with the neck sized cases while very small was noticibly a little worse.  One of the RCBS sized cases had more runout than the other 5 but since I didn't mark it, I can't say it was responsible for the larger group.

Another thing is that while the Lee Collet die needs no lube, cases sized in an RCBS or Redding neck sizing die need at least some dry lube which I used.  It's possible that use of a different lube would give better case consistency and improve accuracy.

I made a scope adjustment 4 clicks up and 2 clicks to the left and shot this group with cartridges assembled with factory new unsized cases.  This group measures 1.312 inches which while acceptable, isn't fantastic.  A lot of scopes, need a few shots to settle down after an adjustment which may explain the large group.

The final group was shot with cartridges assembled from cases sized with the RCBS neck sizing die and was the best of the day at 0.583 inches.  Notice that once again, the bullets from neck sized cases hit lower than those shot from factory new cases.

I would suspect that resizing cases with the RCBS die will probably give the best accuracy provided the cases are lubed well in the neck/mouth area and provided I select cartridges with the least bullet runout.

One thing about Lee Collet dies.  I've found that bullets seated in cases sized with them are frequently loose.  You can chuck the sizing stem and reduce the diameter slightly to get more neck tension or use a Lee Factory Crimp Die (the best thing since peanut butter and jelly sandwiches) to tighten the bullets up.  The big advantage to using the Lee Collet dies is that you don't need any lube at all and the price is good.

If it makes anyone feel any better, I put the rifle away without cleaning the barrel.  I'll clean it again if I decide to workup another load in it but for now, the barrel will wait uncleaned for the first varmint that needs killing.

Offline SHOOTALL

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I will sometimes load new brass with out sizing , but never wear new clothes with out washing . Sometimes nasty people try um on !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Grumulkin

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I will sometimes load new brass with out sizing , but never wear new clothes with out washing . Sometimes nasty people try um on !

You make a good point there.

Offline Grumulkin

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I decided to try some very old 180 gr. Sierra Matchkings I had left over from prior experimentation in my 300 Winchester Magnum.  This was the target with the first load with the new bullet and it hits about the same place as my load with the 190 grain Matchkings hit.  The group size is OK but not fantastic.

Part of the accuracy problem is that the 300 Winchester Magnum has a short neck.  One must seat the bullet all the way in the neck if one wants to follow the rule that says to seat a bullet at least 1 caliber length into the case.  What means is that I could not seat these bullets long enough to reach the lands.

All the groups, by the way, were with cartridges loaded with, gasp, new unsized, untrimmed Nosler seconds cases.

Adding a grain of RL-22 caused a rather marked shift in group location up and to the left.  This frequently happens when one approaches maximum pressure; not up and to the left necessairly, the frequently there is a shift in group location and size.

The primers were getting a bit more flattened with this load with maybe a hint of cupping around the firing pin indentation but extraction was not at all sticky.

This target shows rather marked opening up in group size to 3.473 inches (I HATE the word "flyer" in case I didn't already say that).  It is possible the errant bullet is just an anomaly.  Since there weren't other signs of excess pressure, I think shooting another group with this load would be worthwhile and I'll probably try 74.5 gr. of RL-22 as well (from here on up there will only be 0.5 gr. increments in powder charges).

Another load I'll probably try is with 71.0 gr. of RL-22 though I very much doubt there will be an accuracy advantage in going to a lighter load.

Offline Grumulkin

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I've tried a couple more loads in my 300 Win. Mag. Encore in an attempt to find "hunting bullets" that shoot well in it.  I tried 190 gr. Hornady BT Interlocks with so so results accuracy wise.  More promising is another load I've been working up in the past week with Berger 210 gr. VLD hunting bullets.  I went for heavier bullets than usual since the 300 Win. Mag. cartridge has a fairly short neck and to keep the bullet near the lands I had to use a longer bullet or not enough would be in the neck to hold it securely.

I shot for groups today with some interesting results.  All groups were 3 shots at 100 yards.  Pressure was fine in my gun but if you decide to use a similar load, you are entirely responsible for determining what is a safe load in your gun.

Case: Nosler (seconds)
Primer: Federal 215M (a large rifle magnum match primer)
Powder: 68 grains of H4831SC (charges individually weighed)
Bullet: Berger 210 gr. VLD
COAL: 3.609 inches

1.  Group size 0.955 in. using fired cases resized with a Lee Collet Die with a runout of 0.0015 to 0.0020 in.

2.  Group size 0.875 in. using fired cases resized with a Lee Collet Die with a runout of about 0.0005 in.

3.  Group size 0.872 in. using risky unmolested new brass that I did nothing to other than prime, pour in powder and seat bullets.  Runout was about 0.0015 to 0.0020 in.

I would consider all group sizes fairly equivalent.  Resized case are no better than with new brass and new brass didn't have a significant advantage over previously fired brass.  In this instance, bullets fired from new brass and from resized brass hit in essentially the same place on the target which is not always true.

I would not conclude that Lee Collet Dies are ALWAYS the best dies to use since in one instance, a collet die produced less accurate ammo that that produced by a Redding Neck sizer die and new brass.  Also, in the past bullets have been loose in cases resized with a Lee Collet Die but I've not had that problem with the die I'm using in my 300 Win. Mag.

I think this rifle may do a little better than it's doing right now.  I have room to push the load a little higher and I can try actually kissing the lands with the bullets which may help.  If I got consistent groups in the 0.5 in. range I would be wildly delighted but it may not do quite that well.  Groups, however, are certainly good enough for big game hunting out to at least 500 yards from a good rest.

Offline BBF

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I am relieved to read that you are now using hunting bullets to hunt with ;)
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Offline Idaho_Elk_Huntr

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Grumulkin, Would you happen to have any Accubonds you could load for that barrel? I have the same barrel and with 200 grain Accubonds I have a load that shoots little bitty bug holes.
Rem brass
Fed 215's
72 grains IMR 7828 SSC
200 grain Accubonds
OAL 3.455

bad thing is Im out of 200 grain Accubonds and cant find any

Offline Grumulkin

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Unfortunately, I have no Accubonds or I would try them.  Hopefully, when the Obama reloading frenzy dies down, Nosler will have Accubond seconds again and I'll try some.

Thanks for the load information!

Offline Bearcat 74

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I loaded for a friend who was using the .300 WM in the Encore.  I set a RCBS FL die to where it was just barely pushing the shoulder back, by barely I think it was .002" with my comparator and used H4831 and the Hornady 190 BTSP. 


Win Brass
CCI 250 Primer
H4831 - 73grs
Hornady 190 BTSP

Velocity - 2938fps

Accuracy was outstanding.

I think I had this load .010" off the lands.  I did not write that down though for some reason, I have the OAL but that does us no good without his rifle.   

Offline charles p

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Anyone who has ever worked around a cotton mill, spinning mill, weaving plant, warehouse, or trucking operation can testify why we should all wash new clothes.  The fabrics that are made in overseas plants and then shipped back to us might need a scrub as well.

I always resize new brass, but I wonder if the ammo makers do? 

Offline TLARbb

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The Obama "frenzy" may not die down until he is out of office.  I'd love to find some SR primers for my .204.  I have to say that it shoots some of the factory stuff very well, but reloading is cheaper.

Offline Grumulkin

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Well, one of the groundhogs infesting my property showed itself today and I shot it at a range of about 25 yards with a cartridge loaded with Sierra 190 gr. Match Kings.  I was taking a real chance here since on thin skinned animals, match bullets don't expand and "just pencil through."  Also, in a high velocity magnum such as the 300 Winchester Magnum, bullets go so fast that they "just zip right through doing very little damage."


The entry wound; right on the shoulder where it belongs.


The exit wound.  I'd better use a varmint bullet next time.

Unfortunately, MidwayUSA didn't have any 190 gr. Match Kings available when I looked last but I do have some 200 gr. Accubonds coming and will be interested to see how they do.


Offline Grumulkin

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Grumulkin, Would you happen to have any Accubonds you could load for that barrel? I have the same barrel and with 200 grain Accubonds I have a load that shoots little bitty bug holes.
Rem brass
Fed 215's
72 grains IMR 7828 SSC
200 grain Accubonds
OAL 3.455

I tried the Accubonds.  My load was:

Case: Nosler
Primer: Federal GM215M
Powder: IMR 7828
Bullet: Nosler 200 gr. Accubond
COAL: 3.620 in. (bullet just off the lands)

Yea, I know.  I used IMR 7828 and not IMR 7828 SSC but they're allegedly ballistically identical.  After consulting the Nosler manual, I determined it would be safe to start at 72.0 grains; the first 3 bullets were clear off the target.  After inspecting the backer board, it appeared the new holes were high so I used a paster for a much lower aiming point and shot 3 times with a load with 73.0 grains IMR 7828 and got a group size of 2.855 inches and extraction was a little sticky.

Today I decided to try some cartridges with quite a bit less powder and got results as follows for 3 shot groups all at 100 yards off the bench:

69.0 grains----------0.825 in.
70.0 grains----------0.769 in.
71.0 grains----------1.449 in.

I think the Accubonds work very well so thank-you Idaho Elk Hunter for the suggestion.  It appears to me that in my gun, a load with 70.0 grains IMR 7828 is about right.  According to the Nosler manual, they got the best accuracy with H4831 so I may try that powder as well.

I also shot the load that I first worked up for this cartridge with the RL-22 and Sierra 190 gr. MatchKings at 200 yards for the first time today.  I had cleaned the barrel with Prolix and wanted to foul it a bit before shooting the Accubonds for groups.  Two of the cartridges were loaded in Remington cases I found in a dump when I was in Alaska last year (how risky is that?) and one in a Nosler case.  The first shot was quite a bit higher than I expected (probably the reason I missed the cat at 250 yards).  I thought the reason is was so high was because of the Prolix.  After shooting a string of Accubonds, I shot another round at 200 yards and it hit very close to the first one.  I shot another string of Accubonds and decided I wanted to know if the load in the Nosler case would send its bullets to the same place as the ones with Remington cases; it did...I got a 200 yard 3 shot group of 1.098 inches.

Apparently cleaning with Prolix doesn't change bullet impact points significantly and loads with Nosler cases and Remington cases are pretty equivalent.

Maybe I should start a new thread.  I've put many more than 10 rounds down my 300 Win. Mag. barrel now and I'm using mostly resized cases now which is a whole lot less risky than using new unsized cases.

Offline Grumulkin

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Finally, a "bug hole" group!



As you notice, I went back to my risky practice of using untrimmed, unresized new brass.  The reason was that neck sized cases in the Encore are a little sticky in extraction which means you can't use that variable in determining when a maximum load is being approached.  In the Encore, extraction can be slightly sticky even with full power factory loads.  With new brass, this load was slightly sticky with extraction but I believe I could safely go up another 0.5 to 1.0 grains but I'm not sure I will.

Obviously, when I shoot this load using appropriately trimmed and resized brass, the group size should shrink significantly.  Sierra 190 gr. MatchKings give good accuracy but it appears that at least with this cartridge/powder combination, 200 gr. Nosler Accubonds are a bit better.

Offline Grumulkin

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I did more risky shooting with new unresized and untrimmed brass today.  I wanted to see if the good group yesterday was a fluke; I didn't do quite as well today.



I said I would be happy with 0.5 inch groups so, I guess I'm happy.

I also tried loads with 69.0 and 69.5 grains of H4831SC and those groups were both a little over an inch with acceptable pressure.  The good thing is, this load will consistently shoot around 1 inch at 100 yards.  The interesting thing is that there is a very narrow range of powder weights that gives exceptional accuracy.  If I hadn't seen it my self, I would never have believed that half a grain of powder could make such a big difference in a cartridge of this size.


Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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 ;) Grumulkin, You and the others offered up some good loads for the .300 Win. I have had good success with 72.5 grain of Re22 and 200 grain Part. with CCI 250's. Thanks again. :D ;)