Author Topic: Gunlocks (flintlocks for cannon)... (Read 2125 times)

Victor3 · « **on:** August 07, 2009, 10:34:56 PM »

Anyone ever use one? Never seen one posted here on a model cannon. If I ever do another naval gun it might be cool to make one for it.

Any pictures would be appreciated.....

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2009, 11:27:39 PM »

I do not remember any threads on someone using them but this thread may help a little.....

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,178216.msg1098853605.html#msg1098853605

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2009, 02:30:21 AM »

There's one repro someone pointed me to on the web. I ordered one and it never came so beware until I find out why. I'll have to check the credit card acct and see if I got charged for it-this was all quite recent.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 08, 2009, 03:23:16 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on August 08, 2009, 02:30:21 AM

There's one repro someone pointed me to on the web. I ordered one and it never came so beware until I find out why. I'll have to check the credit card acct and see if I got charged for it-this was all quite recent.

the link I provided is the company in question..... I have a feeling they may be waiting for a shipment from overseas, I believe most of their wares are made in India.

broadarrow · « **Reply #4 on:** August 08, 2009, 12:22:01 PM »

Hi Fellas, if the company offering the cannon lock is militaryheritage.com also known as the Discriminating General you can most likely kiss your hard earned cash goodbye if they already have it, they have burnt a lot of re-enacting customers all over the world lately and have become known as the Dissapointing General, I ordered from them 4 years ago and I have not seen my goods yet so I gave up chasing them after three years by phone, fax and email. My order consisted of 5 items and I was informed every time I rang during their business hours one item was always out of stock, I then asked them to hold the order so it could be shipped complete, big mistake, as they then claimed they did not have all the items in stock at any one time and therefore could not ship the order I was chasing, I then asked them to ammend the order and send what they had, still no go, all I got was the runaround. There are plenty of good honest and reliable net operators out there and it is a shame when a scammer like this one lets you down, so if militaryheritage.com or their other alias the Disriminating General has something you need save yourself the drama and go elsewhere, I hope this helps you, Regards, Peter B.

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** August 08, 2009, 01:23:20 PM »

Quote

you can most likely kiss your hard earned cash goodbye

Uh ohhhhhhhhhh, herewegoagain.....

At least I did it by credit card, the same card that saved my a__ in another instance I reported on here.

Yes it is the "Discriminating General."

Thanks for the warning!

KABAR2 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 08, 2009, 01:44:58 PM »

I am sorry to hear this I had passed the address on to those who asked
but did not want to publish it since it was not a sponsor on the site, I am
glad now that only a few people asked for it. this is a real shame because
it looks like a nice product. It would be interesting to see what Canadian
fraud laws are relating to international sales.

dan610324 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2009, 03:30:13 PM »

that warning came in the right time
I was so close

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2009, 08:18:36 PM »

Victor,

I've seen some interesting percussion firing spring mechanisms on model cannons, but have yet to see a flintlock.

British bronze signal gun - 12.5-inch long barrel - .75 caliber bore - cap nipple, firing mechanism located on bottom of barrel.

Victor3 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 08, 2009, 09:03:37 PM »

Boom J,

I'm in despair now.... I figured if anyone had info on them, you'd be the man.

I remember seeing one in Master and Commander. Later I read a little about them on a couple of websites (didn't bookmark them). IIRC, they came into favor (or "favour"

) with the British Navy and were widely used by them for some time. Other navies, not so much as I recall.

Never could find info on them being used on other than naval guns. I was surprised about that, seeing as how the flintlock mechanism held its status as the most popular long gun/handgun ignition method for two centuries. Seems to me it would have been just as practical on a cannon.

I see there's some info on them in this flintlock Wiki entry...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock_mechanism

Cannoneer · « **Reply #10 on:** August 09, 2009, 03:24:32 AM »

Thank you, Victor; never despair, there is (I'll concede the possibility that this may be an overly optimistic outlook on my part)) always hope, if you have faith.

Quote from: Victor3 on August 07, 2009, 10:34:56 PM

Anyone ever use one? Never seen one posted here on a model cannon. If I ever do another naval gun it might be cool to make one for it.

Any pictures would be appreciated.....

Quote from: Boom J on August 08, 2009, 08:18:36 PM

Victor,

I've seen some interesting percussion firing spring mechanisms on model cannons, but have yet to see a flintlock.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** August 09, 2009, 04:21:39 PM »

Victor,

Here are some photos, and drawings that I've saved of gun locks (meant to be used on real full size naval cannons).

KABAR2 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2009, 05:53:47 PM »

BoomJ

Do you have any more photos of the Charleville lock? a left side view? it is an interesting design, note the turn screw safety to block the sear bar

and prevent an accident.

cannonmn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2009, 08:55:04 PM »

Quote

note the turn screw safety to block the sear bar

As I recall, the thing that looks to you like a sear bar is just a locator pin, and the thumbscrew is just a clamp, not a safety. I can check it out more carefully later.

Victor3 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2009, 08:56:06 PM »

Okay Boom J.... I gotcha.

Thanks much for the pics. I'd love to have flintlock ignition on a cannon one day.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2009, 04:55:06 AM »

No Allen; I double checked, and that's the only photo I've got of that particular lock.

Victor,

I agree with you, that it would be a good thing to have an operating gun lock on a scale model barrel; I know I'd love to have/see one.
Look at some of the examples of fuctional flintlocks that miniature firearms artisans make; it's certainly a doable future project for you. I'm seriously pondering the possibilities of getting a lathe & mill, and giving an effort to try and learn how to use them, though I know it would be a long turn on the learning curve before I'd be able to make something like these locks.

dan610324 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2009, 10:18:03 AM »

just remember that the originals wasnt made with machines
it would be a lot cheaper and easier to learn if you just bought some high quality files, needle files are the most important and a good adjustable wise . and of course emery cloth in 240, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000 and 1200 grit
a high quality magnifying lamp will also be a good thing to have
with that you can do almost anything
here you can see a few of my smaller files now when Im cleaning up the soldering of the trunnions on my new master

Max Caliber · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2009, 10:53:39 AM »

Dan, that is really nice piece. I would like to see more of your work.

Max

dan610324 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2009, 12:56:14 PM »

its just the half finished master for my sons welcome home cannons, he is going back to afghanistan soon again for his second mission with the swedish armys peace keeping force .

its a free fantasy design in mid 1600 style, but all proportions are correct

Im sitting here now and try to clean up the soldering joints between the trunnions and the barrel
tomorrow I hope to be able to polish it if the weather is good enough for any outdoor work,
and maybe to finish a decoration for it also , the small swedish heraldic weapon shield

I attach a few better pictures here

dan610324 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2009, 12:59:57 PM »

here I put on one of the wax dolphins to see how it will look when finished

Cannoneer · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2009, 03:16:59 PM »

Dan, I've got the needle files, moto-tool, and grinder, I think it's nearing the time for me to upgrade a little bit.
I really like the look of your cannon, but it kind of looks like a lathe was used in the process of making it.

You used the word master, so when this gun is completed, is it going to be the pattern you use to make the mold for casting the gun in bronze?

dan610324 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2009, 10:25:52 PM »

yes of course its turned

but I was talking about making one small scale flintlock
it would be faster to make one hammer for example with files then to use machines , but its different if you should make 100 of them.
even if you use a mill for the hammer its a lot of hand filing to finish it .

if you are going to buy machines just remember that when you bought the machines you need to spend at least 10 times the money you paid for the machines on tools and acessories before you have a complete useable equipment .

PLEASE JUST DONT BUY ANY CHINESE JUNK , YOU WILL REGRET IT .

its much better to buy american or european used machines
I got a friend who bought a chinese lathe despite my warnings
the main difference between his and my lathe is that I can use my for precission work and he cant
in my opinion the chinese machines is totally useless
a worn out high quality professional machine is still 10 times better to use then a new chinese

yes its a mold pattern only , no bore will be drilled to it and it will not be cut to the right length either.
the master will just be used to create a silicone rubber mold for wax casting.
then the wax will be embedded in a special investment and preheated
when you heat the investment mold the wax will flow out and burn completely to leave the cavity for the molten bronze, thats why its called lost wax casting .

Victor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2009, 11:27:49 PM »

"PLEASE JUST DONT BUY ANY CHINESE JUNK , YOU WILL REGRET IT .

its much better to buy american or european used machines
I got a friend who bought a chinese lathe despite my warnings
the main difference between his and my lathe is that I can use my for precission work and he cant
in my opinion the chinese machines is totally useless
a worn out high quality professional machine is still 10 times better to use then a new chinese"

I love my big old American machines, but the majority of hobby-oriented folks just starting out use small Asian machines and do fine with them. Not everyone has space for big machines, and some don't want to repair an old one if it's not working well. They just want to plug it in and make chips.

Quality varies, but I've seen some pretty good Taiwanese (generally better than Chinese) mills and lathes. A look at the hobby machining boards will confirm that some Chinese machines are far from "totally useless."

That said, I always recommend that anyone getting into machining look for older, full size US/European machines if they can afford them, have the space (the bigger the better when you're talkin' cannon manufacture) and don't mind doing some refurbishment.

dan610324 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2009, 01:16:00 AM »

you get a decent used quality machine for the same money as a new chinese, at least here in sweden.
I suppose its the same in usa

yeah taiwanese machines are most often of better quality then chinese, but they are also more expensive

of course there is many hobby guys who produce really nice stuff in chinese machines, but when they have tried a high quality professional machine most of them also sell the chinese stuff and buy a real machine .
of course it depends on your needs
but I would NEVER change my lathe against a brand new chinese or taiwanese in the same size

there is lots of small quality machines also , personally I wouldnt recomend anyone to buy a too small lathe
its easier to turn a small piece in a larger lathe then turning a large piece in a smaller lathe .
unfortunately the smaller machines often are more expensive to buy used then larger as there are so many hobby guys that wants them .

but you dont need to buy a monster size lathe just because of that, I would recomend to start with a lathe thats approximately 7 inch from bed to center chuck and can hold minimum a 30 inch long work pieces

at least here in sweden you can find a nice used high quality lathe in that size for the same money as a new chinese lathe .
but of course you must search a lot, they dont grow on trees
another advantage to buy a used quality lathe is that you probably can get a lot of tools and acessories with it

if you by any reason would like to sell your lathe after some years you most sure will get your money back and maybe some more if its a quality machine , but if you have a used chinese machine you would probably not get more then 1/3 of what you pay for it

Cannoneer · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2009, 05:34:05 AM »

Thanks for the information, guys.
Dan, the primary motivational force behind me wanting to get a lathe, is to be able to make my own barrels. I would like to be able to make reproductions of historic barrels in as exact a scale, and with as much detail as the attempted developement of my skills will allow me to achieve.

cannonmn · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2009, 07:17:47 AM »

Speakin' of gunlocks, I just got the book THE ARMING AND FITTING OF SHIPS OF WAR ...by Lavery. It doesn't have many actual photos of cannons, but has a number of smallish drawings, so it pretty much corresponded with the reviews I posted a link to. I did get one valuable bit of info from it however, which to me was worth buying the book (haven't read it, only skimmed so far.)

On page 143 under paragraph "Locks" is: "Locks were issued in two sizes, one for 9-pounders and above, and one for smaller guns." So now I know that there is probably a standard-issue British cannon flintlock that will fit my small bronze gunade. The video of the piece showing how the larger British lock won't fit on it is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiISY9Agmo

dan610324 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2009, 08:44:16 AM »

Boom J

how large barrels is the max size you want to build ??

in a lathe that can take a 30" long workpiece you will have problems when you reach barrel lengths over 15"
you need space for both the barrel and the drill bit for the bore

it aint difficult as soon as you learned a little basic about turning
just take it slow and think twice before you do anything
when you are going to make an absolute perfect scale copy it will take some time , but dont try to hurry.
it takes just a tiny mistake to ruin 20 hours of work
think calculate think and calculate again , dont even try to do any precission work if you are tired .
all turning is precission work

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT , BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WHEN YOU USE ANY MACHINE

I got some pictures of an australian lathe accident , but I dont remember if I got them here or at the swedish hobby machinist forum so I dont know if you have seen them before .

as we had the discussion about the mermaid I would absolutely not publish this pictures here at the forum .
its a fatal accident . send an email if you want them

carronader · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:37:24 AM »

Dan sent you email of bronze in Budapest will post to board when I get home need to organise pics and I hate my wifes laptop going back tomorrow for more