Help identifying who produced this artillery model

[Forward Observer]

Hi guys, 

New to the forum, but an avid artillery fan since the US Army sent me on a one year all expenses paid vacation to Southeast Asia just 40 years ago.

I have a small collection of model muzzle loading cannons of varying sizes--both shooters and non-shooters---some purchased and some built from
kits over the past 35 years or so.   Still, I haven't found too many other cannon fans like myself until I came across this site.

I do have a question that maybe some of the members here can help me with and that is to identify the maker or source of the model pictured below

A few months back, I won the bidding on this exquisite museum quality revolutionary war cannon model on Ebay.   It is a 1/10 scale model of
a British 6 pdr. of 1770 exactly as drawn on page 35 of Peterson's Round Shots and Rammers.     The seller simply said he picked it up in an estate
sale, but had no information as to it's origin. 

I happened to have remembered seeing another example of the exact same model come up for auction about a year earlier---only this time the seller
had all kinds of authentication paperwork provided by the maker.  From what I remember, it was a numbered piece a limited edition of models produced
back in the 1970's and I seemed to think the company's name was something like "Royal Armouries" or something to that effect.   That particular model
went for almost $1,000 which was way above my budget at the time.   

However, the piece I picked up a year later was not advertised very well and only listed in the toy cannon section.  Consequently no one paid any
attention to it and I snagged it up for about 1/4th of what the earlier version sold for.   I have done endless searches on the net, but all I have
found using the name I remember is a ling to the actual Royal Armoury museum in the UK.


Here are some pictures:

You will note that it is missing one tool--the sponge/rammer combo


A close up--the wood for the trails appear to be curly maple


Another shot  with a quarter on the base for size comparison


My barrel is #308 of what I am guessing were a run of maybe 500 models


Sorry for the long post, but I was wondering if any of you fellows have come across such a model before?

It would function as a shooter, but as I said it is so exquisite that I would never dare foul it up by trying to do so.

Cheers

P.S.  If it would be of interest, I would be glad to post pictures of some of my other stuff.

[RocklockI]

welcome to the board ....

i have no clue but that is one nice cannon . it seems to me that some of those cannon kits had an upgrade ...

they sure didnt put out the word if they were .

Very Nice cannon .

have you shot her ?

thats a keeper !

[Forward Observer]

welcome to the board ....

i have no clue but that is one nice cannon . it seems to me that some of those cannon kits had an upgrade ...

they sure didnt put out the word if they were .

Very Nice cannon .

have you shot her ?

thats a keeper !

Thanks, and no, I have never attempted to shoot it.   It is such a pretty model  that I simply don't want to take a chance on fouling it up.
I do not believe it was ever a kit, but instead a "reservation only" special run of models made for collectors, and I am guessing they were
pretty pricey when issued.

[dan610324]

hi and welcome to the board

sorry that I cant give you any name of the manufacturer , but I have seen an identical cannon at an antique dealers site a while ago .
dont remember who it was , but do remember that the 308 should have been the caliber of the gun and the stamp beneth it should be a brittish proof stamp
they had actually been proofed
I will check my files and came back to you

now Im back , does it seem to be familiar in some way ;-)

[BoomLover]

Dan, you big showoff! Seriously, both of you have a very nice pair of cannons, beautys! Forward Observer, please do post some more of your collection, we would like to see them here! And, another welcome to the forum. BTW, you really should shoot this little cannon, it is only fitting and right, then you don't have to worry about keeping it pristine! BoomLover

[dan610324]

its not my cannon , but I wish it was
I just saved those pictures from somewhere , probably a antique dealer
I liked them because they showed the carriage so very well

[Terry C.]

Beautiful gun, Forward Observer!

Welcome to the board and yes, please do post pics of your other pieces.

Smoke and fire pics (and video with sound if you can) are is always welcome .

[Forward Observer]

Hi dan610324,

Believe it or not, I am pretty sure that I remember that the seller of the one that went about a year ago on EBay used a Campbell soup can in one of his pictures for scale
and he also had shots with the barrel removed from the carriage.   I also remember that he was an antique dealer, so I think your pictures are very likely from the same source.

Obviously, I was in error thinking that the 308 stamped on the barrel was a serial number, and I failed to notice the (") inch symbol stamped after the number.
I measured the bore with some cheap plastic dial calipers and they read .300 of an inch, so thats seems to bear out what you indicated.

I just wish I had saved some of the copy for that auction, but then I never thought I would see one again.  I have started saving the pictures from such auctions now along with any pertinent copy.  It has actually helped me identify a sundial cannon I have.

I post some pictures shortly of some other stuff.   I can't remember the last time I fired any of my shooters, but I guess I need to find a range somewhere and and take some photos of them in action.

Cheers



P.S.   There's a valuable lesson to be learned here on how to sell stuff on EBay.

One dealer posts numerous large shots of a collectable item with all kinds of descriptive copy and available provenance.  He also lists it in multiple classifications like militaria,
brass cannons, model cannons, black powder cannons, collectables, and so on.  For his efforts he get dozens of bidders and scores close to $1000.

Another dealer comes along---puts one or two dinky photos of the same item with hardly any pertinent copy or info, lists it under toy cannons, gets only two bidders, and I get it for $235 plus $20 shipping.  It was just my lucky day!

[dan610324]

do you have a sundial cannon ?? please lets see it
I made 3 of them some years ago , but they are all still here in sweden, at least what I know
had an idea to make one again and try to keep it 

[Cat Whisperer]

FO -

Welcome to the board!  We'd LOVE to see pictures of other items in your collection!

[Forward Observer]

My sundial cannons are nothing special, but they are always a conversation starter when someone sees them.

The first I put together from a kit that Dixie Gunworks used to sell.   The only real hassle was grinding and polishing the rough cast brass.


This one I picked up at a flea market in Nashville, TN about 25 years ago.   The base is some kind of resin that has the appearance
of scrimshawed ivory.    I don't think it was ever meant to be fired since it is not vented and was made as a decorator--although
it seems sturdy enough.     In just the last couple of months one of these came up for auction on EBay and the seller indicated that
in was made by a company simply named "Sundials" that went out of business in 1980.



Here's the first shooting model I ever built.  It's 1/8th scale Model 1841 six pounder.  I made this from a kit I got at Dixie Gunworks
around 1975 and I think they still carry it.  The .50 caliber barrel came bored but rough cast.  The carriage is cast aluminum but
came plain Jane, so I had to fabricate all the chains, pointing rings, and such out of scrap hardware.   The sponge bucket is actually
an old spray paint can lid with a coat hanger handle.  I have matching limber for this packed away somewhere, but since I have no
space for a workshop now, I don't know when I'll get around to putting it together.



Here's  a nice brass and walnut  1/10 scale 24 pdr.  naval cannon of the type used on the USS Constitution.   I put it together from a kit made by a company called Rhodes, Ltd. and it has a .56 caliber bore    You can still find this kit for sale at Cannonmania.com. I have a second one still unassembled.  I had the idea of making a small diorama of a two gun section of a ship's gun deck using both of them, but  I don't know if I will ever get around to doing it. 


Here is 1/10 scale functional model of a Gribeauval  10 inch mortar.  I believe the kit is made by the same people that make the previous shown 24 pdr. 
 

Here's cannon I assembled from a Connecticut Valley Firearms kit back in the late 70's  I'm sure you guys have seen these before since they are still around, but quite expensive now.  CVA called it a Napoleon III and advertised it as a US civil war piece, but obviously it is a stylized European version and not  accurate.   It's shoots a .69 caliber ball and will put a pretty deep hole in a large phone book.   Setting next to it is a little non-firing garrison cannon assembled from a kit put out by one of the Ship modeling companies---Mantua, I think.--along with another view of the small model


Here is a shot of a large curio where I house some of my models along with some pirate themed junk




I'll post some more when I get my shots organized.

Cheers

[RocklockI]

wow ....thats some awsome stuff .

F.O. which branch?

[KABAR2]

Forward Observer,

Welcome! and let me say you have a nice collection displayed there,

I have to ask it's not cannon related but is that a printing press on the bottom shelf left side?

[Forward Observer]

Forward Observer,

Welcome! and let me say you have a nice collection displayed there,

I have to ask it's not cannon related but is that a printing press on the bottom shelf left side?

Thanks, and yes it is a model of a Gutenberg press from a kit I got from my first wife for Christmas many years ago.   Everything moves and I guess it would function if one could find type small enough.   I know it's a bit offbeat, but still kind of a neat thing to have.




Cheers

[Forward Observer]

wow ....thats some awsome stuff .

F.O. which branch?

If you mean my army service--it was US Army Artillery.   I had a low draft number and likely might have gotten drafted out of college, so I signed up for advanced ROTC and got a commision on graduation in 1968.   I went to the field artillery school at Ft. Sill, OK and then on to Vietnam as  a forward observer attached to various infantry units in the field.   I managing to stay in one piece for 8 months doing this and then moved back to my artillery fire base as fire direction officer, then battery exec, and finally battery commander in the last month.   I was only a 1st lieutenant by then, but we were short on captains at the time.   My unit was a heavy arty battery consisting of two self propelled 8 inch howitzers and two self propelled 175mm guns.   Field artillery of that size is no longer used I think.   Anyway, I decided that the service wasn't for me, so when my two years active duty was complete, I didn't re-up.

Cheers

[Cannoneer]

Forward Observer,

Welcome! I have the feeling that you're going to become a regular here. We have three things in common: The Rhodes model 24-pdr, Rhodes Gribeauval mortar, and the CVA Napolean.
Here are the three sheets that were shown with the scale model British 6-pdr (Dan's photos) that was auctioned on ebay before you had the "great good luck" of winning your identical cannon at the price you won it for.
The "cire perdue" written next to "Maker's Name" on the second sheet could be a British model making company, but cire perdue is actually French, and means the lost wax process of casting metal objects.

[Forward Observer]

Wow!   Thanks, Boom!

You and Dan have given me the missing info I was searching for.   It's too bad that I didn't get those documents with my  model, but then the dealer said he picked it  up in an estate sale and there was nothing else with it.    Fortunately, my model appeared to be in a little better condition than the documented one.

I must have overlooked it  before, but I removed the barrel on my model and found the number 83 stamped on the bottom almost directly opposite of the 308 " caliber stamp on the top area of the breech.    I rememberd the word "Royal" but somehow put "Armoury" with it. 

The Royal Artillery Museum is in Woolwich, England and they have a website:

http://www.firepower.org.uk/

I think I'll use their contact link to see if they might have any further info on these little models.

Thanks again guys!

[dan610324]

dont forget to ask how many they produced and why
price back then if they was sold

[Forward Observer]

Boom,

Since you mentioned the CVA cannon, I thought I would add that I also have two of their little 45 cal. Naval cannons--one I assembled and one I found at a flea market.
I also have a CVA cannon model that one rarely sees, and it's still un-assembled in the original  packing.   It's a 1/4 scale 12lb. mountain howitzer.  It uses the same wagon wheels that came with the Napoleon III, and CVA marketed it as the 7th Cavalry cannon in the size I have and a much smaller version.  I don't think the large size sold very well, so it was only on the market for a short while.   The barrel is steel rather than bronze and has a rifled 58 caliber bore. 

Of course a 58 cal bore looks way too small for the size of the barrel, but I don't think it would be safe to have it re-bored since the trunnions appear to be press fitted into the barrel.    I may get around to assembling it, but I had always planned to either have the barrel brass plated, or conversely simply find a suitable 1/4 scale real brass/bronze barrel.

I live in a townhouse condo now with no garage and no real place for a workshop, but I am shopping for a new place to rectify that before I get to old to finish all my un-started
projects--lol

Cheers



P.S.

a picture with my foot for scale

[KABAR2]

Forward Observer,

I know someone with one of the Mountain Howitzers they look good complete.

[GGaskill]

What's the overall length of that rifled mountain howitzer barrel?

[Forward Observer]

What's the overall length of that rifled mountain howitzer barrel?

It's 10.5 inches from the muzzle to the base ring of the breech and the cascable adds another 1.25 inches for 11.75 over all.    I had an old South Bend Replica's catalog handy, and saw that they listed their 1/4 scale mountain howitzer at only 9.5 inches and the full size at 39 inches, so my Spanish made CVA barrel may be a bit over scale.   I guess that might rule out using a commercially available 1/4 scale barrel.    I have not bothered to check the scale of the wheels or the trail, but I've got a set of drawings for the prairie carriage packed up somewhere and will have to compare.

I don't have much time right now since I am trying to get packed to fly to Vegas tomorrow.  I have more pictures to post, but it may have to wait until I get back.

Cheers

[KABAR2]

Forward Observer,

Either you are a transplanted Canadian or have spent some time up there......

Cheers


Allen <><

[Forward Observer]

Forward Observer,

Either you are a transplanted Canadian or have spent some time up there......

Cheers


Allen <><

No, I was born in ,and have only lived in, the South.    I did get to visit Montreal and Quebec city  for a few days about 15 years ago, but that was
it.    What makes you think that, eh?

[KABAR2]

The "CHEERS"

Is something I see on a Canadian grenade forum at the end of a response I always liked it but have always associated with Canadians that's all.

Allen <><

[Forward Observer]

I picked up using "Cheers" from a combat flight sim forum, which has quite a few UK, Canadian, European, and Aussie members.

The old sit-com Cheers was also one of my favorite shows, so I just started using it, and it stuck.

Cheers

[Cannoneer]

Forward Observer,

I've also got one of the small CVA "Old Irionsides" naval guns; a slew of these models must have been sold, because so many people sarted their collections with them, and on any given day you can find two or three being offered for auction on ebay.

On your British 6 pounder, I was re-reading some of the info on those three pages, there's some interesting things there; one dram of powder used in the proofing of the gun by the "Worshipful Company of Gunmakers," and the type of bronze used in the casting of the barrell is given as "traditional Admiralty gunmetal, B.S. 1400 G. 1." (British Standard 1400 Grade 1).

[Victor3]

I also have a CVA cannon model that one rarely sees, and it's still un-assembled in the original  packing.   It's a 1/4 scale 12lb. mountain howitzer.  It uses the same wagon wheels that came with the Napoleon III, and CVA marketed it as the 7th Cavalry cannon in the size I have and a much smaller version.  I don't think the large size sold very well, so it was only on the market for a short while.   The barrel is steel rather than bronze and has a rifled 58 caliber bore. 

 FO,

 I bought one of the smaller (50 cal) versions of the Mountain Howitzers like you have on ebay for IIRC ~$35 (bad pic, listed as a model). Says here in my ebay Excel file I turned it around for $230. As you noted earlier, a good description and pictures can make "one man's trash, another man's"............ $230 

 I rekun your large MH kit would go for a good chunk of change these days.

 I have one of the Rhodes Ltd. mortars. I had one of the "Moyer" aluminum carriage 50 cal 1841's like you show (Unfinished it sold for $113 on ebay).  My 1st cannon was the CVA "Old Ironsides" naval cannon you mention.

 I had a website with details about the resin-base "noon cannon" you show, but can't find it now. IIRC, the company that made it was in Los Angeles in the 70's (?)

 You've got some desirable goodies there for sure.

[Terry C.]

I also had one of the smaller .50 CVA mountain howitzers, along with the .45 Ironsides. That was well over 20 years ago, wish I still had them now...