'58 Remington - Max Loads 777 and BP?

[flmason]

Hi All,
   I've got a Pietta '58 Remington here. Haven't been able to establish what the true max load is for it is. Anyone know with any certainty?

I've read all sorts of things, but can't seem to really find anything definitive.

Have a pound of 777... been wondering of 30 gr. is a safe load or not? Just guessing 25 gr. would be a decent load.

[Hunter6657]

I found 25grs of 777 and 2 wonderwads under a roundball gave the best accuracy in my steel frame 58 Remington. It was not as accurate with 30grs of 777 but still shot fist sized groups at around 20yards. The 25 and 30gr charges were volume equivalent out of a blackpowder measure. I dunno what the actual measured weight was. Using one wonderwad was accurate also, I just wanted the ball to be seated closer to the cylinder mouth for less jump to the forcing cone. I was using at least .454 or .457 balls for better accuracy and better seal.

[FourBee]

The Pietta requires a .451 diameter round ball.  Many prefer the .454 diameter however.   I don't use 777, but I know it is hotter than regular BP.   Black Powder with the ball included can fill the chamber, but you are only wasting powder that way.   For a big bang 35 to 40 grains.   For accuracy try 20 to 25 grains.  Most will tell you 22 grains of real black powder make a very accurate load.   Cut that back a little for the 777 and try it.
4/B  

[NickSS]

I have not tried and 777 but have used pyrodex P and regular black powder in my 1858 remingtons for years (like 40) and have found that a load of 25 to 28 gr of FFG shoots just fine in them.  More powder can be fitted but accuracy falls off.  My Piattas with blow the X and 10 ring out of a 25 yard pistol target without a problem.

[Gatofeo]

The Hodgdon website lists that with a steel-framed, 1858 Remington reproduction revolver:

Note: All measurements are by volume, not weight. For example, use a measure that holds 20 grains of FFFG black powder to measure the listed 20 grains of Pyrodex 777.

.454 inch Hornady ball
One Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad

Hodgdon 777, FFFG-grade
20 grs., 536 feet per second
25 grs., 763 fps

Consider 25 grains as maximum for that Remington reproduction.

A maximum of 35 grains is listed for use with the Ruger Old Army .44 but that's is an extremely strong model of modern design.
A few years back, when 777 was new and difficult to find,  I purchased a can of FFFG grade 777. At the range, I was under the assumption that it was like Pyrodex, designed to be used volume-for-volume with black powder.
So, I loaded a 40-grain equivalent into my Uberti-made reproduction of the 1858 Remington.
Wow! 
I was clearly into the high pressure range, judging from the recoil and blast.
I fired the 6 rounds I'd loaded (rather foolishly, I admit, because I should have stopped after that first shot) and read the label.
Lesson learned.

So, I'd load no more than 25 grs. of 777 in that reproduction of a Remington.

To bring the ball closer to the rear of the barrel, so it doesn't have such a long trip down the chamber that may affect accuracy, use one or two wool felt wads under the ball to take up space.
These wads should be lubricated with a natural lubricant such as olive oil, Crisco, bacon grease, beeswax, mutton tallow or a commercially made natural lube such as Bore Butter or CVA Grease Patch.
At the risk of sounding self-promoting, I've found that the lubricant now dubbed Gatofeo No. 1 Black Powder Lubricant is the best I've found.
The following recipe is very old; discovered by me in an old gun magazine. I refined the recipe by using specific ingredients. The old recipe was not so specific.
It is made by melting together 1 part canning paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow and 1/2 part beeswax. All measures are by weight, not volume.
Use exactly what is listed; substitution of ingredients with other substances will result in a lubricant with inferior properties.

Incidentally, Hodgdon lists a maximum of 25 grains of 777 with the Colt 1860 .44 too.
Somewhere in its long list of instructions and warnings I've seen the notation that Hodgdon 777 should not be used in revolvers with brass frames. Definitely heed that warning. For brass-framed revolvers, use black powder or Pyrodex.
Brass frames, being weaker than steel frames, should not be used maximum loads.

[flmason]

It's beginning to sound like 777 is useless in revolvers. I noticed in the Hodgdon data that the Pyrodex loads shoot to higher velocities. That leads me to believe 777 is the BP substitute world's Bullseye. I.e. hot and fast burning.

Maybe fine for a rifle where I don't have to worry about seating depth, but sounds like more problems than it's worth in a C&B revolver if you can't realize higher velocities from the pressure *and* have to mess around with fillers or wads.

Guess I screwed up buying a pound of that. Ah well, the rifle will have to digest it I guess.

Guess I need to order some Pyrodex P for the handgun. And just eventually switch to that totally. The less differences I have to keep in mind and stock, the better.

I suppose there's some argument that goes, "777 is lighter per volume and more powerful so you can get more shots per pound". But what I'm after is non-finicky, consistent accuracy, easiest cleaning, least corrosive.

Guess I bought into that "hotter = higher velocity" thing a little to quickly.

[FourBee]

  

Posted by: flmason  But what I'm after is non-finicky, consistent accuracy, easiest cleaning, least corrosive.

There are two substitutes that come close to that requirement.  GOEX Pinnacle FFFg and American Pioneer Powder FFFg (APP).   Like all the other subs, there are some drawbacks.   These two brands are very similar if not the same powder.   That said, they may draw moisture after being opened and clump together.   Of course nothing beats GOEX fffg real black powder.

4B