Legal Issues with Selling mortars and cannons

[NitroSteel]

I've done a good job (I think) building my Parrot Field Rifle, but I just don't enjoy shooting it as much as I thought I would.  I really enjoy shooting my mortars and hope to burn a couple of pounds of powder today.

In selling a normal store bought gun I don't think in most cases there is any liability for what happens to the gun or the owner of the gun afterwards.  Has anyone here ever sold a cannon or mortar that they built?  How can you wash your hands of the liability associated with it?  Weld up the fuse hole and say it is ornamental?

I've never seen this discussed on the board before.

Thank ya'll.

NitroSteel

[thelionspaw]

In the words of "Dick the Butcher", in Shakespeare's, Henry VI act 4, scene 2;   
"The first thing we do, is kill all of the lawyers".

Richard "The Butcher"

[KABAR2]

Some manufactures like Hern Iron Works leave off the vent, and have you sign a waver stating that
you understand that they sell it as a "Decorator cannon"  what they are doing is creating a document
stating that you hold them harmless, and take responciblilty for your actions of drilling the vent.
I am not a lawyer, how well these hold up in court I do not know, hopfully no one needs to find out.



I tend to agree with Richard.......


how about a law that if your a lawyer you can't run or hold a public office..........


Allen <><

[dominick]

how about a law that if your a lawyer you can't run or hold a public office..........


Allen <><

That's already a law.  It's  called separation of powers.

[cannonmn]

For unknown reasons, a certain percentage of cannon sellers (new cannons or old, doesn't seem to matter) take customer money and never deliver any goods.  This is called fraud.  To me the percentage of fraudsters seems higher in the cannon business than in the normal world of commerce.    In this business, be very careful who you send money to, check more than one reference, protect your money by using a major credit card, etc.

[Cat Whisperer]

Nitro -

I understand the problem - and have as much problem giving advice.  My brother is a lawyer, not me.

Most of what I've built is so  overbuilt that I don't think one could blow it up; but then I have seen a cannon explode!

[dan610324]

anything can get blown up

load a big blank charge of Norma R1 and a hughe wadding in a high quality very thick wall cannon and I guarantee that it will blow up

the last idiot isnt born yet

if you got a golfball bore cannon with 2" walls , it doesnt matter .
it still will blow up with the right amount of powder

I know because it have been done, but that test was done in a hughe concrete bunker so it was safe
anything can blow up, with no knowledge anyone can make a mistake
you never know who will own your gun in the future

I had an idea to start making some small exclusive bronze cannons and sell them here at gbo ,
but Im not sure any longer if thats an good idea or not just because of this reason

especially as usa is the most sue friendly country in the world when someting happened

I had another idea to start teaching here at gbo how to make your own bronze cannon from a to z
but that also stopped just as an idea because of this

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

I had a fellow on here build a bronze handgonne for me, and he has elected not to sell it to me because of this sort of fear.  I think this sort of lawsuit is rediculous.  If I choose the material and dimensions, I take full responsibility for maintaining my safety and the safety of those around me if I choose to shoot something.  It's a shame that because I possess neither the skill nor the equipment to manufacture something, I can't obtain it, since I can't contract someone else to build it for me.

You could engrave full loading procedures in the barrel, and someone may sue you because they weren't also in Spanish.  All you can really do to protect yourself is render it useless (spike it and pour concrete down the bore, for instance), or not sell it.

I have a Hern barrel, and did have to sign their form and have it notarized.  I also had to drill the vent.  I don't know how well that protects them, but you can download their form on their website and see what you/a lawyer thinks of such an agreement.  You may also want to check with other manufacturers on their policies and protections, especially if they sell ready to fire barrels.

[KABAR2]

how about a law that if your a lawyer you can't run or hold a public office..........


Allen <><

That's already a law.  It's  called separation of powers.

Then why are so many lawyers in the Congress the Senate & the White House?  

For unknown reasons, a certain percentage of cannon sellers (new cannons or old, doesn't seem to matter) take customer money and never deliver any goods.  This is called fraud.  To me the percentage of fraudsters seems higher in the cannon business than in the normal world of commerce.    In this business, be very careful who you send money to, check more than one reference, protect your money by using a major credit card, etc.

I think it seems this way because you are dealing with so many people over the internet, but the problem is throughout the internet,  I see the same problems on other forums
with people scamming others,  many forums have a hall of shame or some such for members who committed fraud, and you will hear don't buy from so&so he is actually this guy
he changed his name and is doing it again......  you are right about the number of business's that seem to be involved in a fraud of some kind. there seem to be more of them in the
cannon business, but there are less companies who sell cannon so I guess it seems like there are more of them. 




Dan is right any cannon can be blown up, that is why gun manufactures put things on their guns like "BLACK POWDER ONLY" "READ INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE"
It is a way for the manufacture to say see I took precautions to inform the user not to........  so the problem has been around for a long time.  I have mentioned it before and I
will mention it again, this is for crew served cannon mainly, there was an accident with a LaPan tube years ago the man lost his hand he sued everyone  involved LaPan, the BAR, the Artillery unit, etc.etc.  in the end he settled the case before a jury verdict, but because of it LaPan no longer manufactures Cannon Barrels. Nobody held a gun to his head and told
him he had to load the cannon, he knew the risks, it's unfortunate that he lost his hand due to an accident, but where was the liability on the part of the manufacture?  the cannon preformed as it was supposed to, there was no catastrophic failure that cost this fellow his hand and yet he was able to sue them all the same.Where was the liability of the parent organization? The Bar holds high standards for training and authenticity they have held artillery schools to pass on safe handling of the big guns, they have done every thing in their
power to make sure both the re-enactor & the public are safe as much as humanly possible and yet he was able to sue them. Was the artillery unit libel? they were an old unit and
had been around since the Bi Centennial they practiced their training, everyone knew where they should be and their jobs,  the piece was properly searched and swabbed as done by
the crew hundreds of times yet one small ember must have remained that caused this accident. all of the parties involved had insurance most likely they had made him an offer
which he did not feel was fair and brought on the suit when all was said and done he settled for around 30,000.00 in 1980's money. Had the case gone to the jury it is believed by everyone involved that I spoke to that he would not had gotten anything.
 

[thelionspaw]

A contract is ONLY a meaningless piece of paper.  You can sign ANYTHING; that's what lawyers are for.  Remember a juror imagines itself on the receiving end of a case like the one they are presently sitting on. 

The sole issue here is not the maker having something blowing up but having their product being used with the end result being a frivilous law suit.

The gun was so loud, it hurt my ears......sue!

The gun wasn't fired but it gave my child nightmares.......sue!

Think of anything stupid and.......sue!

Darwin Award fodder.......sue!

AND IT CAN ALL COME BACK TO SQUARE ONE!

rc

[KABAR2]

Richard

I long for the days when a man's word was his bond, a deal was done with a hand shake, people held themselves accountable for their own actions

and everyone was happy.

[GGaskill]

The only thing I can suggest is to make sure there is no trail, paper or otherwise, back to you as maker.  If it gets down to his word against yours, without any bill of sale, etc., I think you are fairly safe, but remember, anyone can sue anyone else any time.  You might win the case but have legal bills that are higher than a settlement would be.  My suggestion is to quote Shakespeare as was done elsewhere recently.

[BoomLover]

Pros and Cons to everything. A manufacture could make a million items (Cannons?) and no problem, A million and one, and Bingo, lose everything to a lawsuit. A Lawyer I know very well once told me that anything is legal until you get caught. So, with that in mind, I have sent raw material to three different manufactures on this forum, and gotten satisfactory results in all cases. I didn't ask for them to provide any assurances that their workmanship was flawless, I accepted them as returned to me in good faith that they would preform as intended, which they did. At some point a person has to accept responsibility for their own actions. I personally wouldn't sell any cannon or mortar to anyone, because I'm not in that business, except on the condition that once out of my hands, it was totally their responsibility. Period. Sign on the dotted line that you understand and agree to these terms! However, we understand it is almost impossible to insulate yourself from lawsuits, especially since there are so many lawyers ready and willing to sue over anything. If I ever get ready to get out of the hobby, I'd give (or will) my equiptment to another cannoneer, knowing that they at least would have an understanding what care was involved in firing these little beauties. Brings to mind the old, often used quote, "A gun is a tool, nothing more, it can't kill anyone on it's own" Same story with a cannon or mortar, except they are a bit easier to fire, so some Darwin Award winner could fire one improperly and cause major acts of destruction! BoomLover

[RocklockI]

The only thing I can suggest is to make sure there is no trail, paper or otherwise, back to you as maker.  If it gets down to his word against yours, without any bill of sale, etc., I think you are fairly safe, but remember, anyone can sue anyone else any time.  You might win the case but have legal bills that are higher than a settlement would be.  My suggestion is to quote Shakespeare as was done elsewhere recently.

i can only agree !    "  ........ decessed polititions are called statesmen .......we need more statesmen ."

not sure who said it . but trurer words have not been said ............... as i and 'some' on this board think !

i think that a bullet proof (lawyer approved) statement like hern does is all thats nessesary ....

and bronze cannons are cool too !

[Victor3]

The only thing I can suggest is to make sure there is no trail, paper or otherwise, back to you as maker.  If it gets down to his word against yours, without any bill of sale, etc., I think you are fairly safe, but remember, anyone can sue anyone else any time.  You might win the case but have legal bills that are higher than a settlement would be.  My suggestion is to quote Shakespeare as was done elsewhere recently.

 Too late. I once read an article - "Diamonds (and your online posts) are forever."

 I recently saw a picture of an airgun I posted (on a US forum), shortly after Gore invented the internet. It was on a website based in Russia, complete with my first name. Hard to get rid of stuff if it's been copied and re-posted somewhere.

 I think if I were ever to sell of one of the cannons/mortars I've manufactured and posted about, it would only be after photographs were taken of its welded up vent and steel-stamped "Non-Firing Flower Holder" note on the receiver.

[GGaskill]

I might add, too, that the paper trail includes shipping the piece to the buyer.  In person pickup only!  And wear your shades, and meet someplace other than your home.  Maybe in front of the home of one of your enemies.  Cash only!

[Cpt Ed]

Or as this seller in California did, you can fill the barrel with anchor cement, leaving the last 3” at the muzzle end for the insertion of a wooden dowel, then painted it red. It is then only a static display collectable when received.

After great effort, it has now been restored to good firing condition. Note now my liability. 

The seller was also kind enough to not fill in the vent or the area into the chamber. That breech area was filled with wax paper.

[Cat Whisperer]

I LIKE that technique.
To me, that certainly indicates INTENT - on both parties part.
(But, as others have said, I'm NOT a lawyer.)