Bannerman's Cannon matchplate?

[cannonmn]

Please help me out with properly identifying this item.  It originally came from Francis Bannerman and Sons in NY.  I think it is a pair of matchplates for making a small cannon using sand casting.  I'm not sure why these two items seem to be mounted on a table leaf.

How exactly were they used?  Why do they both have the kind of complicated sockets to hold the two tabs underneath?

Does anyone have an old Bannerman catalog that shows replica cannons made from this pattern?  Has anyone seen a cannon made using this pattern?

Anyway someone went to a lot of trouble to have this thing made, and I'm guessing they used it to make some number of cannons.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums42/?action=view&current=aa625e8a.pbw

??

[GGaskill]

Assuming they are opposite halves of a sand mould pattern, the goal is to have them assume perfect alignment when on opposite sides of a board.  When they are properly placed, the holes in the trunnion halves will line up, presumably to allow the halves to be clamped to the board between them.  The board they are on is something to keep them together with or to show them.  It is not usable as the matchplate board.  Presumably the matchplate board would have matching alignment plates, etc., to properly locate the pattern halves, and also other indexing elements (most likely holes) to locate the matchplate relative to the casting flask.  The pieces are metal for long life (pounding the sand around them to make the mould cavity will destroy a wood one fairly soon) and hollow for weight reduction.

Look at the One of my 1/2 scale Mountain Howitzers thread for more discussion of a matchplate.

[KABAR2]

  I'm not sure why these two items seem to be mounted on a table leaf.

 Does anyone have an old Bannerman catalog that shows replica cannons made from this pattern?  Has anyone seen a cannon made using this pattern?

Anyway someone went to a lot of trouble to have this thing made, and I'm guessing they used it to make some number of cannons.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums42/?action=view&current=aa625e8a.pbw

??

I think I can answer the table leaf question,  Bannerman being a surplus dealer nothing went to waste, anything could be re-purposed to another task,

the table leaf would have been made from a very stable wood that would not warp, also it would display nice, bannerman was a showman.

When I lived a few blocks from Bannerman's annex out on Long Island they had a wooden model for a cannon barrel that they were still using,

it was around 24 to 28 inches long, they were still using it in the late 1960's to have iron barrels cast,  there was one in the shop with very crude

Dolphins added to it made out of aluminum!  I will see what I can find in my old 1905? addition of the catalog,  in some ways this reminds me more

of the half hull display models for sailing ships, than a match plate. one thing to remember with Bannerman he was also cheep! I could see this as something

to be sold for display,  wood is easier to turn and cheaper to send off to the foundry than brass that can be sold for a profit,  we can thank Bannerman for

the loss of thousands of oval "US" civilwar belt buckels,  he scraped them out for the lead and the brass.

[cannonmn]

Thanks GG., that helps.

in some ways this reminds me more

of the half hull display models for sailing ships, than a match plate.

Thanks Allen, I guess if there were only one of these halves, it could be a cannon half-model, but since there are two...?

I always envied anyone who had ever set foot in Bannerman's, all the stories I've heard-yours is the first about the L.I. annex.  Most are about 501 Broadway, NYC.  An old fellow around here used to get in a car loaded with several buddies on a Saturday and drive to NYC after payday.  They'd fill the car with shot, shells, bayonets, whatever they could afford then slowly chug home with the bumper nearly dragging on the road.  And I think there may have been some alcohol involved in those adventures as well.  The friend was a fireman and consumed more intoxicant daily than I thoght anyone could withstand.  His pride and joy collectible didn't come from Bannerman, it came from right here in DC, a huge 12-inch Blakely shell or bolt, with very deep engraving in the nose area regarding its capture alongside the blown-up gun it was made for, in Charleston, SC.  That was the one thing Jack woundn't sell when he moved out of the DC area about 20 years ago.  He had found it in the entryway of an office building in DC-used as a display.  I think it was one small piece of many tons of relics the Navy scrapped in 1959 when their plan to build a new museum building fell through due to lack of funds.  Other neat items I've seen from that scrapping included a 10" bronze Spanish mortar with capture inscription (traded to Castillo de St. Marcos by a friend of mine,) its mate with identical capture inscription , a 6" mortar now in a private collection, and a light Dahlgren boat howitzer complete with carriage, dated 1861.  This last piece was purchased direct from the scrap dealer by a local accountant, who kept it till he died in about 1990.  I knew about it and tried to get it but "Elmo" was quicker, and got it.  I knew him and often mentioned I'd like to have it someday.  He died about 2004, the family called me and I said I'd like to buy it, then somehow a local attorney/collector got in there, so now it is in his collection.  Dang!  How unlucky can I be to miss the same piece twice!  Well you win some and you lose some, and since I've won more than a few times, I can't get too upset about the losses, that's just the way it goes!

[Cannoneer]

What other interesting items did you pick up at the auction, that you haven't shared with us yet?

John, George, and Allen, I know next to nothing of cannon casting patterns, but on a split pattern wouldn't there be at least two locating pins to align the halves when put together?

[thelionspaw]

I just flipped through my Bannerman's catalogue and couldn't find it.  I remember Blue Point as being bare-bones compared to Broadway.  If this was anywhere, it was in Broadway where there was all the paneling and display stuff.

It sure doesn't look like a mould to me. Too many questionable points.  Bannerman had a number of patent models.

It sure was nice growing-up in the Big Apple.  I was there during the banner years of Bannerman's in the 40s and trecked to the outer limits of the universe when they moved to Long Island.

This display may have been done after the barrel left Bannerman's.

[cannonmn]

Richard, thanks.  BTW what year(s) of the B. catalog do you have?  Does anyone else have various B. catalogs?  Rsn I ask is that I have a few other things I need checked in them.  I only have 1925 reprint and 1931.

Actually the thing I need worst is a much better image of the cannon which appears here in the 1925 reprint.  As you can see the photo quality in that reprint is poor.  Rsn I need a better image is that I think I have that cannon here, and have had it for a long time-but the image in the book was so poor I never noticed.  If anyone has the original '25 edition, especially the deluxe slick-paper one, that might have a better image, as would any edition prior to 1925 that happened to have this same cannon.  In the cannon section, as you know, there was a lot of repeat from year to year.

One thing I can say about the caption is that if the cannon shown with the proportions shown was indeed over 5 feet long, it weighed a lot more than 150 lbs.  I'm betting that was a typo, since the gun shown is a Spanish colonial-cast piece, of a general type which rarely exceeds about three feet in length.

[thelionspaw]

My slick original isn't available but I still have a 1927. I'll check.

rc

[cannonmn]

What other interesting items did you pick up at the auction, that you haven't shared with us yet?

I was bidding for the company, Springfield Arsenal LLC, which bought the two Moffatt howitzers, the French naval gun on the USN carriage, and the "matchplate or not" cannons.  I bought an interesting 3-pounder chain shot for myself, to go with my 3-pounder militia cannon.  

The Company stuff will get into the system after the people get back from vacation, will get priced, and put up for sale.  But I get to play with it while it's in the warehouse, a fringe benefit.  I'm sure we'll be working on the two steel howitzers to get the mechanisms working again, have done quite a bit of that kind of work.  I will also need to come up with some kind of a display and/or firing mounting.  A full-up heavy Dahlgren boat howitzer carriage would, I think, drive the price up beyond where most of our customers would be interested, so I'm looking at something simpler, maybe a boat carriage with a steel "A" frame vice the bronze original.

[Cannoneer]

Cannonmn,

In the slideshow you posted at CMH there was a photo of something in a long rectangular crate set upon a table; what are the items inside the box, are those replacement barrels for one of the Gattling guns?


PS  Thanks for the above answer.

[cannonmn]

In the slideshow you posted at CMH there was a photo of something in a long rectangular crate set upon a table; what are the items inside the box, are those replacement barrels for one of the Gattling guns?

Frankford Arsenal cannon star gauge set, very rare, made 1859, measures all US cannons up to and inc. 13-inch.   It went a little over what I wanted to pay for it, no tellin' where it would have ended if I hadn't dropped out.

[cannonmn]

Forgot to mention this item the Co. bought, blown-up section of a U.S. 6-pounder gun, model 1819, a "walking stick."  The design was too thin-walled for the cast-iron technology of the day, and many of them blew up like this one.  This blew up in service, I'm sure, and killed some of the crew. 

I'd dearly like to find this pictured in one of the old Bannerman catalogs, because it might have some details as to where, when, what unit, etc.  The auction description had basically no information.